Seeds for Success podcast

This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host Neroli Brennan. Today, we're catching up with Terry Worthington. Terry owns and runs Four Corners with his wife, Katie, as well as working alongside his father across a total of 7, 000 acres near Condobolin. Their business is split between livestock breeding and trading, with 40% of their business focused on breeding composite cattle and 60% around trading and adjustment of cattle and bare breach Merino sheep. In this episode, Terry talks to us about how he's come to understand the landscape around him as he sits at the watershed of his region, and how appreciating the differences between his property and his surrounding neighbors has led him to simplify his approach to farming and improve the health of soil and the native pasture shrub systems that naturally thrive on his land. Terry explains how, with a shift in his thinking and a desire to move away from time- intensive plowing and annual cropping, he's finding new pastures establishing that have not been previously seen in his lifetime. You'll also hear how changing his approach to managing livestock is reducing the stress for both himself and for his livestock. Local Land Service's Natural Resource Officer Jasmine Wells caught up with Terry on a gorgeous sunny day out at Four Corners.

Welcome back to the podcast listeners. I am sitting at Four Corners today with Terry Worthington. Welcome to the podcast.

Welcome back to the podcast listeners. I am sitting at Four Corners today with Terry Worthington. Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Jas. Pleasure to have you out here again.

Thanks for having me, Jas. Pleasure to have you out here again.

Yeah, it's a beautiful day here today. I've been lucky to be here a few times.

Yeah, it's a beautiful day here today. I've been lucky to be here a few times.

Yep. No, we're very blessed with the weather at the moment. We've had good rain. Well, not a huge amount of rain, but the country just looks magnificent at the moment.

Yep. No, we're very blessed with the weather at the moment. We've had good rain. Well, not a huge amount of rain, but the country just looks magnificent at the moment.

It does. At the moment, it's just an absolute picture. What's going on here? Tell me a little bit about the farm.

It does. At the moment, it's just an absolute picture. What's going on here? Tell me a little bit about the farm.

We're predominantly cattle at the moment, so 40% of my business is a breeding herd of composite cattle and then I'm running 60% trade and adjustment cattle at the present time in a small flock of bare- breached Marinos. Four Corners itself is only a 1, 400 acre block, but we run in partnership with my father Colin on Bonnie Doon. We bought the place 16 years ago, so we've just run the two places together, and now we do have split entities. Katie and I myself have a partnership with, and we have a partnership with dad as well. Together, 7, 000 acres. Just to put that in perspective, the neighbors all around here are probably in the 12, 000, 21,000, 28, 000 acres, so we're the smallest in this area until you go east of us towards Salamore. We're right up on top of the watershed of the Loughlin and the Bogan. At the house here, the water runs to the Bogan and over the ridge just behind us, the Lion Bark Ridge to the west, all that water runs into the catchment of the Loughlin River through the which headwaters of the murder creek.

We're predominantly cattle at the moment, so 40% of my business is a breeding herd of composite cattle and then I'm running 60% trade and adjustment cattle at the present time in a small flock of bare- breached Marinos. Four Corners itself is only a 1, 400 acre block, but we run in partnership with my father Colin on Bonnie Doon. We bought the place 16 years ago, so we've just run the two places together, and now we do have split entities. Katie and I myself have a partnership with, and we have a partnership with dad as well. Together, 7, 000 acres. Just to put that in perspective, the neighbors all around here are probably in the 12, 000, 21,000, 28, 000 acres, so we're the smallest in this area until you go east of us towards Salamore. We're right up on top of the watershed of the Loughlin and the Bogan. At the house here, the water runs to the Bogan and over the ridge just behind us, the Lion Bark Ridge to the west, all that water runs into the catchment of the Loughlin River through the which headwaters of the murder creek.

I love that you have such an understanding of the catchments.

I love that you have such an understanding of the catchments.

Yeah, because up here on the ridge lines, we're on the ridge that runs along the watershed. It's completely different to the rest of the district. Completely different soils, completely different trees, habitat, and a different climate as well as in rainfall. We have a lot of storm activity in summertime. Not unusual to get four inches of rain in an hour here, it's more than normal. Every couple of years, we'll get four inches in an hour. We have had up to 13 to 15 inches overnight, that's happened a couple of times in my lifetime. I've lived in the area all my life. Dad's 89 and he's 90 in a couple of months time, so he's lived here all his life. He grew up on the property next door, Verona, and his father grew up on the property Boona Mount , which was... They moved here in 1909, so yeah, we've got a fair presence in the district. My grandfather, he had four sons, and he was lucky enough to be able to put all those four sons on the properties. Dad was one, uncle Kevin took a block to the west of where we live. Uncle Don or Smokey, he was to the south, he had Boona Trig , which is now Pete Stuckey's place, and then Uncle Peter or Biggles, he had took the original block for Verona, and dad got Bonnie Doon. We've got a good knowledge of the area, but our place, Bonnie Doon, and Four Corners is completely different. As I said to the rest of the district, it's very light soils and more the challenges of that rainfall we get... When we were cropping, we're not cropping anymore, we would be dry two weeks before everybody else in Condo. The soil just didn't have the holding capacity to... our horizon, or if you like, topsoil's probably only 10 centimetres. Well, if you go back down towards the Boona road, along the Boona road, there's topsoils there being measured to the depths they can get them to, which is 12 to eight meters of topsoil. The holding capacity of that country is so much greater than what it is here, whereas we're on a gravel base up on the ridge lines. If you grab a bucket of dirt, you dig down your 40 centimetres, two- thirds to three- thirds of that is going to be stone and gravel, and not soil as such, so your holding capacity straight away is reduced by two- thirds compared to other countries. We've changed our direction of way we manage things to be able to cope with that variety of... Well, not just what falls out of the sky. Our job is now what falls out of the soils to catch it here and to keep it in the soil, which we haven't been all successful for the periods of the past, and so we're seeing the changes now.

Yeah, because up here on the ridge lines, we're on the ridge that runs along the watershed. It's completely different to the rest of the district. Completely different soils, completely different trees, habitat, and a different climate as well as in rainfall. We have a lot of storm activity in summertime. Not unusual to get four inches of rain in an hour here, it's more than normal. Every couple of years, we'll get four inches in an hour. We have had up to 13 to 15 inches overnight, that's happened a couple of times in my lifetime. I've lived in the area all my life. Dad's 89 and he's 90 in a couple of months time, so he's lived here all his life. He grew up on the property next door, Verona, and his father grew up on the property Boona Mount , which was... They moved here in 1909, so yeah, we've got a fair presence in the district. My grandfather, he had four sons, and he was lucky enough to be able to put all those four sons on the properties. Dad was one, uncle Kevin took a block to the west of where we live. Uncle Don or Smokey, he was to the south, he had Boona Trig , which is now Pete Stuckey's place, and then Uncle Peter or Biggles, he had took the original block for Verona, and dad got Bonnie Doon. We've got a good knowledge of the area, but our place, Bonnie Doon, and Four Corners is completely different. As I said to the rest of the district, it's very light soils and more the challenges of that rainfall we get... When we were cropping, we're not cropping anymore, we would be dry two weeks before everybody else in Condo. The soil just didn't have the holding capacity to... our horizon, or if you like, topsoil's probably only 10 centimetres. Well, if you go back down towards the Boona road, along the Boona road, there's topsoils there being measured to the depths they can get them to, which is 12 to eight meters of topsoil. The holding capacity of that country is so much greater than what it is here, whereas we're on a gravel base up on the ridge lines. If you grab a bucket of dirt, you dig down your 40 centimetres, two- thirds to three- thirds of that is going to be stone and gravel, and not soil as such, so your holding capacity straight away is reduced by two- thirds compared to other countries. We've changed our direction of way we manage things to be able to cope with that variety of... Well, not just what falls out of the sky. Our job is now what falls out of the soils to catch it here and to keep it in the soil, which we haven't been all successful for the periods of the past, and so we're seeing the changes now.

Why the change? What caused you to realize that changes needed to be made?

Why the change? What caused you to realize that changes needed to be made?

When I first started farming here back in the early '90s, I used to go to field days. I really got frustrated when I went into farms around Condo and saw their soil types. We were looking at soil pits that had nine meters of topsoil in horizon. I said I just couldn't really relate to that at all, so I stopped any... That was all the thing. Everything was around these better soils, your Bimbo Box country, your better soil Bimbo Box country, so we kept doing what we were doing. We were mainly sheep- orientated, some of wool. We were growing a really good wool in the conditions, which... Because we were wool- orientated, our pastures were annual pastures to try and break away from the perennial '90s, which were spear grasses and a lot of contamination in our wools. Our pastures were based annually and, with our cropping, that made it even more annualized. We focused on our wool and we cropped, because we was under the impression, I was too, that if you didn't crop the year, a country went backwards and became feral quite quickly, and there was no other way about it, you had to put a plow on it. You had to put a one- way plow to keep the pine trees off it, and that was the thing. Within first year of going into a pasture phase, we had galbur would be on it, saffron thistles, and cotton bush. Within three years or four years, the cotton bush was too big that you couldn't drive over them. Within a three- year period, two, your waddle trees where as... Same thing now, it's getting to a stage where they couldn't be driven over, and within seven years, the pine was at a stage where it was detriment to anything. We knew what we were doing, we knew that we're hurting the soil, but at that stage, the only thing we knew to do was to put a one-way plow into it to try and give us some pasture for our merino sheep, for our wool. We weren't making a lot of money cropping, we were doing a very low... Well, not low inputs, but we were doing... Our machinery costs were very low. Bought all machinery with cash, bought everything with cash. We didn't have an overdraft at all, we had no borrowed money. Dad didn't believe in borrowing money. Still can't, doesn't handle stress very well with financials, I've done all the financials for 30 years here, and we fixed everything ourselves, but the scale wasn't there. Don't get me wrong, I've grown some pretty good crops in this light country over the years. We were still poking along, but it was the wool that put the bread and butter on the table.

When I first started farming here back in the early '90s, I used to go to field days. I really got frustrated when I went into farms around Condo and saw their soil types. We were looking at soil pits that had nine meters of topsoil in horizon. I said I just couldn't really relate to that at all, so I stopped any... That was all the thing. Everything was around these better soils, your Bimbo Box country, your better soil Bimbo Box country, so we kept doing what we were doing. We were mainly sheep- orientated, some of wool. We were growing a really good wool in the conditions, which... Because we were wool- orientated, our pastures were annual pastures to try and break away from the perennial '90s, which were spear grasses and a lot of contamination in our wools. Our pastures were based annually and, with our cropping, that made it even more annualized. We focused on our wool and we cropped, because we was under the impression, I was too, that if you didn't crop the year, a country went backwards and became feral quite quickly, and there was no other way about it, you had to put a plow on it. You had to put a one- way plow to keep the pine trees off it, and that was the thing. Within first year of going into a pasture phase, we had galbur would be on it, saffron thistles, and cotton bush. Within three years or four years, the cotton bush was too big that you couldn't drive over them. Within a three- year period, two, your waddle trees where as... Same thing now, it's getting to a stage where they couldn't be driven over, and within seven years, the pine was at a stage where it was detriment to anything. We knew what we were doing, we knew that we're hurting the soil, but at that stage, the only thing we knew to do was to put a one-way plow into it to try and give us some pasture for our merino sheep, for our wool. We weren't making a lot of money cropping, we were doing a very low... Well, not low inputs, but we were doing... Our machinery costs were very low. Bought all machinery with cash, bought everything with cash. We didn't have an overdraft at all, we had no borrowed money. Dad didn't believe in borrowing money. Still can't, doesn't handle stress very well with financials, I've done all the financials for 30 years here, and we fixed everything ourselves, but the scale wasn't there. Don't get me wrong, I've grown some pretty good crops in this light country over the years. We were still poking along, but it was the wool that put the bread and butter on the table.

The cropping just complimented that, because it worked?

The cropping just complimented that, because it worked?

Because everyone else was doing it, so I did it, we did it.

Because everyone else was doing it, so I did it, we did it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Gave something to talk about in the pub. Dad loved harvest time. He went back to the days when driving seven- ton trucks into Tullamore, you pulled up the silos, and you went to the pub and someone moved the truck for you. Someone moved the truck for you. Then you come over and you did that for three months, trailers went for three months, so he loved it. The denting changed in the '90s and everything got bigger. We didn't get bigger, but we bought a little bit more country, we bought a little block here next to 750 acres of the original Four Corners, which I now own. That was in '89, that was in the wool. Wool was really booming, so we were shearing 100 bales of wool at that stage, so the cropping was still six to 700 acres a year, what we could handle with our small gear and cheap gear. Even then, I just hated having to plough seed and see it washed away at that stage. That's what would happen here in summertime. You do a summer fallow, then you get that four inches in January, February, and you would get a gutter through a paddock that didn't have a gutter in it before.

Gave something to talk about in the pub. Dad loved harvest time. He went back to the days when driving seven- ton trucks into Tullamore, you pulled up the silos, and you went to the pub and someone moved the truck for you. Someone moved the truck for you. Then you come over and you did that for three months, trailers went for three months, so he loved it. The denting changed in the '90s and everything got bigger. We didn't get bigger, but we bought a little bit more country, we bought a little block here next to 750 acres of the original Four Corners, which I now own. That was in '89, that was in the wool. Wool was really booming, so we were shearing 100 bales of wool at that stage, so the cropping was still six to 700 acres a year, what we could handle with our small gear and cheap gear. Even then, I just hated having to plough seed and see it washed away at that stage. That's what would happen here in summertime. You do a summer fallow, then you get that four inches in January, February, and you would get a gutter through a paddock that didn't have a gutter in it before.

You know if that topsoil is washing away, a lot of your moisture is going with it.

You know if that topsoil is washing away, a lot of your moisture is going with it.

Yeah, well, we never stored it. The fallow was just what you did to control weeds and to get a soft surface for seed contract, or your in- crop rain was what grew the crop, because we didn't have the holding capacity in a lot of the soils to hold water. He'd start with a beautiful soil, it'd come out of the pasture face from a native pasture, it looked beautiful. Then you had to work it three times and, every rain, you turn around and worked it. Four workings was probably... No, minimum four workings. That's all I did for three or four years. I came home, that's all I did, was sit on a tractor, working country up, because well, at that stage, wool had crashed, we'd had the wool crash, so we started putting more emphasis on our cropping, and even through the crash times, we relied on... The wool was what paid the bills all the time. Now, come to the present day where I've done a complete shift totally and we're not wool- orientated at all, we're now cattle- orientated, and that's changed the country totally. Gone back to a native grass country and I've now got water holding capacity in country that never held water before. Runoff is totally reduced, and growing grass we haven't seen. As I said, dad, he's 90 this year, and a lot of the grasses, he's never seen before.

Yeah, well, we never stored it. The fallow was just what you did to control weeds and to get a soft surface for seed contract, or your in- crop rain was what grew the crop, because we didn't have the holding capacity in a lot of the soils to hold water. He'd start with a beautiful soil, it'd come out of the pasture face from a native pasture, it looked beautiful. Then you had to work it three times and, every rain, you turn around and worked it. Four workings was probably... No, minimum four workings. That's all I did for three or four years. I came home, that's all I did, was sit on a tractor, working country up, because well, at that stage, wool had crashed, we'd had the wool crash, so we started putting more emphasis on our cropping, and even through the crash times, we relied on... The wool was what paid the bills all the time. Now, come to the present day where I've done a complete shift totally and we're not wool- orientated at all, we're now cattle- orientated, and that's changed the country totally. Gone back to a native grass country and I've now got water holding capacity in country that never held water before. Runoff is totally reduced, and growing grass we haven't seen. As I said, dad, he's 90 this year, and a lot of the grasses, he's never seen before.

You haven't introduced them, they're just coming back naturally?

You haven't introduced them, they're just coming back naturally?

They're naturally there, the seed bank was there. 80- year- old seed bank, maybe 100- year- old seed bank. On the lighter country, the change is so dramatic and happened so quickly. That was a big shock. The question, look back at myself and say, " How do I change the thought process that the country was going to go backwards without cropping?" Really, was the change for me was when I bought the mulcher. I've got a tractor- driven, PTA- driven forestry mulcher four meters wide originally, and so I had all these thoughts about the cotton bush. I've just got to stop trying to plow this cotton bush country up, because it was just totally destroying it. There was nothing really growing. It was all annualized, so if you didn't get rain within six weeks, you had no feed. In 2016, we were lucky enough we'd had a good wet year. We had the tax incentive, it was tax- free, we right off within 12 months, so I was lucky enough to be able to grab a new one at that stage. Tried it out, I thought it was just going to be for the cotton bush to trim up the galbur, so I used it first on that. Did a fantastic job. Actually, I had too low at that stage. Machine, I made them like bowling greens. The paddocks, beautiful after what the mulch had gone through. I really wasn't thinking about what the mulch was doing itself to the soil or anything like that. Then I stepped it up and then I started going over some little trees, little suckers. Did a fantastic job on that, and then bigger pine trees. If I could drive over in the tractor, willing to drive over in the tractor, it would mulch it, and the pine doesn't come back once it's mulched. It's totally changed the situation here with the plow. Stop that day and never plow it again. I've found now, with the wattle, the wattle will keep coming back, but I keep it under a certain height and stock grazing it, and their grazing habits have changed with the wattle too. They now utilize it 100%, and with the change in our rotation with our grazing practices, it's now a useful tool. The country where the wattle is is fantastic feed under that now, because it's nutrients there with the mulching.

They're naturally there, the seed bank was there. 80- year- old seed bank, maybe 100- year- old seed bank. On the lighter country, the change is so dramatic and happened so quickly. That was a big shock. The question, look back at myself and say, " How do I change the thought process that the country was going to go backwards without cropping?" Really, was the change for me was when I bought the mulcher. I've got a tractor- driven, PTA- driven forestry mulcher four meters wide originally, and so I had all these thoughts about the cotton bush. I've just got to stop trying to plow this cotton bush country up, because it was just totally destroying it. There was nothing really growing. It was all annualized, so if you didn't get rain within six weeks, you had no feed. In 2016, we were lucky enough we'd had a good wet year. We had the tax incentive, it was tax- free, we right off within 12 months, so I was lucky enough to be able to grab a new one at that stage. Tried it out, I thought it was just going to be for the cotton bush to trim up the galbur, so I used it first on that. Did a fantastic job. Actually, I had too low at that stage. Machine, I made them like bowling greens. The paddocks, beautiful after what the mulch had gone through. I really wasn't thinking about what the mulch was doing itself to the soil or anything like that. Then I stepped it up and then I started going over some little trees, little suckers. Did a fantastic job on that, and then bigger pine trees. If I could drive over in the tractor, willing to drive over in the tractor, it would mulch it, and the pine doesn't come back once it's mulched. It's totally changed the situation here with the plow. Stop that day and never plow it again. I've found now, with the wattle, the wattle will keep coming back, but I keep it under a certain height and stock grazing it, and their grazing habits have changed with the wattle too. They now utilize it 100%, and with the change in our rotation with our grazing practices, it's now a useful tool. The country where the wattle is is fantastic feed under that now, because it's nutrients there with the mulching.

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you're trading some stock, getting new stock in, do you try and run them with some stock that are used to grazing that way?

When you're trading some stock, getting new stock in, do you try and run them with some stock that are used to grazing that way?

Absolutely, 100% I integrate them straight away. I noticed, with the adjustment catalog came in this last year, they didn't want them integrated, so they didn't get integrated with my stock at all, but they have now. It was amazing. There's an innate knowledge in those stock about grazing, they've never seen a courage wrong tree. They've never seen a balla tree and never seen a rosewood tree, but as soon as they came to a tree, those three trees, they grazed them straight away.

Absolutely, 100% I integrate them straight away. I noticed, with the adjustment catalog came in this last year, they didn't want them integrated, so they didn't get integrated with my stock at all, but they have now. It was amazing. There's an innate knowledge in those stock about grazing, they've never seen a courage wrong tree. They've never seen a balla tree and never seen a rosewood tree, but as soon as they came to a tree, those three trees, they grazed them straight away.

They just knew to look up for feed instead of just looking down.

They just knew to look up for feed instead of just looking down.

Yeah, from looking down. I thought that would be the complete opposite. They've never seen a tree down there, there's no connection to it at all. There is an ability for that animal to test turn two and to see itself, and they've done that with the wattle as well. They've tested and tried. One will try it, one will test it. Quite difficult with the wattle, though, because it sends out tannins straight away once it's been grazed. Found out this from Africa. In Africa, we visited South Africa last year, and one of the guides was talking about... We're looking at a herd of giraffes and they're actually going at a pretty steep gallop and grazing the acacia. They only eat two types of acacia over there that grow, and the guy was explaining to me that the acacia send out messages to other acacias, then sends a tannin up to them, so they've actually got to beat the message going, so they feed into the wind and they do it at speed. I came back in and watched. I introduced my cattle into a paddock that had wattle and watched what they did, and they did exactly the same thing. They got into the wind, downwind of the wattle, and I did it at pace and they just went through and grazed through quickly, and they did that for every different patches in the paddock and they did that for the first two or three days, and then they couldn't touch it anymore. Then I moved them again and they did it fresh pace, and did the same thing again. The livestock have got this innate ability through, as I said, Australia was once connected to Africa, the biggest shock I saw when I went there was how much kangaroo grass river. They call it red grass. It is thousands and thousands of acres of kangaroo grass. When Gondwana land were split up, kangaroo grass, all the grass that we have here is all the same as they have over there. You introduce ones here now, your digit grasses, your sub- tropicals, they all go well here, because it is the same country. It's amazing, but unfortunately, we've lost a lot of knowledge of what this country does. Only trying to gain that back now, but it's so interesting. You can watch a mob stock graze now, and that's why time, I slow down now and I watch what's grazing.

Yeah, from looking down. I thought that would be the complete opposite. They've never seen a tree down there, there's no connection to it at all. There is an ability for that animal to test turn two and to see itself, and they've done that with the wattle as well. They've tested and tried. One will try it, one will test it. Quite difficult with the wattle, though, because it sends out tannins straight away once it's been grazed. Found out this from Africa. In Africa, we visited South Africa last year, and one of the guides was talking about... We're looking at a herd of giraffes and they're actually going at a pretty steep gallop and grazing the acacia. They only eat two types of acacia over there that grow, and the guy was explaining to me that the acacia send out messages to other acacias, then sends a tannin up to them, so they've actually got to beat the message going, so they feed into the wind and they do it at speed. I came back in and watched. I introduced my cattle into a paddock that had wattle and watched what they did, and they did exactly the same thing. They got into the wind, downwind of the wattle, and I did it at pace and they just went through and grazed through quickly, and they did that for every different patches in the paddock and they did that for the first two or three days, and then they couldn't touch it anymore. Then I moved them again and they did it fresh pace, and did the same thing again. The livestock have got this innate ability through, as I said, Australia was once connected to Africa, the biggest shock I saw when I went there was how much kangaroo grass river. They call it red grass. It is thousands and thousands of acres of kangaroo grass. When Gondwana land were split up, kangaroo grass, all the grass that we have here is all the same as they have over there. You introduce ones here now, your digit grasses, your sub- tropicals, they all go well here, because it is the same country. It's amazing, but unfortunately, we've lost a lot of knowledge of what this country does. Only trying to gain that back now, but it's so interesting. You can watch a mob stock graze now, and that's why time, I slow down now and I watch what's grazing.

I was going to ask what you do with all your extra time now that you're not plowing, recreationally.

I was going to ask what you do with all your extra time now that you're not plowing, recreationally.

Overseas trips.

Overseas trips.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, overseas trips. Yeah, I must admit, we've had probably since we changed our direction. I put away the chemical drum and stopped telling the diesel guy to turn up.

Yeah, overseas trips. Yeah, I must admit, we've had probably since we changed our direction. I put away the chemical drum and stopped telling the diesel guy to turn up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've had six overseas trips, we've got another two booked for this year.

We've had six overseas trips, we've got another two booked for this year.

That's amazing, so there's lifestyle changes that have come-

That's amazing, so there's lifestyle changes that have come-

100% lifestyle changes. Yeah. People tell me that they've noticed a difference in me as well, a much more relaxed person, carefree. It's no stress, absolutely. I know that myself.

100% lifestyle changes. Yeah. People tell me that they've noticed a difference in me as well, a much more relaxed person, carefree. It's no stress, absolutely. I know that myself.

How do you make your decisions, though? Yes, you're not dealing with the fuel and the chem, but you still are trading, breeding.

How do you make your decisions, though? Yes, you're not dealing with the fuel and the chem, but you still are trading, breeding.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How are you making those calls? Because we've had a pretty good run with livestock, but there's still a lot of decisions to remain, and there's still imports and...

How are you making those calls? Because we've had a pretty good run with livestock, but there's still a lot of decisions to remain, and there's still imports and...

I had a pretty big toolbox of tools I use in my strategies, which I use. I don't like to label the grazing system I use, because it's not really a system, I use chaos as... The system is chaos. I go back to nature. When I can, I look to what happens in nature and try and mimic it as best I can and what I can observe here. Yeah, I use chaos grazing. I look what's happening and I'll change off as much. Now I'm trying to get just to one mob, I'm down to two mobs here. Last year, I was at three mobs, so I had three. I was running what you'd call three cells, rotationally grazing through those, and didn't have a time set, because it was raining so much last year and the grass kept growing. Last year, grass grew all year. July, for about three weeks. It did stop growing. I could do a very quick rest period, so it was probably four... Because I had the three cells, I was averaging about... Paddocks size, about 250 acres, which now I'm reducing down 100 acres, but splitting most paddocks in half. Mob sizes was probably around about 5, 000 to 3, 000 DEC per mob, and one mob had sheep and cattle combined in it as well, and it was probably... Yeah, so trying to get a non- selective graze. Originally, that's what was happening when it first started introducing stock to this size mobs. Their first introduction was a non- selective graze. It was all very competitive, they come from the gate, now we just eat everything. They've got a bit cunning now, because they've worked out what's going on. They get changed every day, so what they do now, they come do, and just take the ice cream. I'm going to do a change up again this year and just do a really high density in smaller paddocks, and three moves a day for a while. Just try and get that change, change them up, and to try and stop that selective grazing, which is now happening with the dev learned. The stock will learn, I'm trying to unlearn that, and get the competitors back into them, so they'll eat everything in their paddock.

I had a pretty big toolbox of tools I use in my strategies, which I use. I don't like to label the grazing system I use, because it's not really a system, I use chaos as... The system is chaos. I go back to nature. When I can, I look to what happens in nature and try and mimic it as best I can and what I can observe here. Yeah, I use chaos grazing. I look what's happening and I'll change off as much. Now I'm trying to get just to one mob, I'm down to two mobs here. Last year, I was at three mobs, so I had three. I was running what you'd call three cells, rotationally grazing through those, and didn't have a time set, because it was raining so much last year and the grass kept growing. Last year, grass grew all year. July, for about three weeks. It did stop growing. I could do a very quick rest period, so it was probably four... Because I had the three cells, I was averaging about... Paddocks size, about 250 acres, which now I'm reducing down 100 acres, but splitting most paddocks in half. Mob sizes was probably around about 5, 000 to 3, 000 DEC per mob, and one mob had sheep and cattle combined in it as well, and it was probably... Yeah, so trying to get a non- selective graze. Originally, that's what was happening when it first started introducing stock to this size mobs. Their first introduction was a non- selective graze. It was all very competitive, they come from the gate, now we just eat everything. They've got a bit cunning now, because they've worked out what's going on. They get changed every day, so what they do now, they come do, and just take the ice cream. I'm going to do a change up again this year and just do a really high density in smaller paddocks, and three moves a day for a while. Just try and get that change, change them up, and to try and stop that selective grazing, which is now happening with the dev learned. The stock will learn, I'm trying to unlearn that, and get the competitors back into them, so they'll eat everything in their paddock.

Are you seeing that with new stock you've brought in too, that they know they can just eat the ice cream and move on, or does it take them a little while to learn what's happening?

Are you seeing that with new stock you've brought in too, that they know they can just eat the ice cream and move on, or does it take them a little while to learn what's happening?

No. New stock seemed to not do that, actually. The new ones introduced in... That's how I got away for last year, I had two big mobs introduced, 400 breeding cows brought in last year. I was able to get really good pressure on the country that needed, on the country that had gone. It was too much body to the feed, so I needed to reduce that biomass, and they were unable to do that. Originally, they came in and they didn't cherry- pick, they total grazed, because they came, and that's the system they were used to... Because in their systems, they came from down at Holbrook where everything's edible, and they didn't realize... They got here that everything wasn't edible, no one told them that, but they worked that out within time that they've worked that out, " These things are more powerful, we don't have to eat everything. We can just eat all this, we're going to go on a new paddock, and if we stand at that gate long enough, he'll open it." You've got to look at what nature's doing and how nature works and what nature's trying to do to combat what's happening with what you are doing to nature. That's a never- ending cycle in that respect.

No. New stock seemed to not do that, actually. The new ones introduced in... That's how I got away for last year, I had two big mobs introduced, 400 breeding cows brought in last year. I was able to get really good pressure on the country that needed, on the country that had gone. It was too much body to the feed, so I needed to reduce that biomass, and they were unable to do that. Originally, they came in and they didn't cherry- pick, they total grazed, because they came, and that's the system they were used to... Because in their systems, they came from down at Holbrook where everything's edible, and they didn't realize... They got here that everything wasn't edible, no one told them that, but they worked that out within time that they've worked that out, " These things are more powerful, we don't have to eat everything. We can just eat all this, we're going to go on a new paddock, and if we stand at that gate long enough, he'll open it." You've got to look at what nature's doing and how nature works and what nature's trying to do to combat what's happening with what you are doing to nature. That's a never- ending cycle in that respect.

Because you run grazing charts as well.

Because you run grazing charts as well.

Yeah, I run grazing charts. I use KLR marketing, which is principle management of using principles to use management of your livestock. It's livestock, grass, and money, so managing those three things together. The cornerstone of KLR is your sell- buy, which is a complete swap around how everybody else works, but it's not a new concept that's in every commodity. It's in everything you sell- buy. All big operations work on sell- buy, not buy- sell. Farmers, for some reason, we work on buy- sell. We buy it to sell it, whereas everybody else sells to buy, so we are way behind eight- ball there. That's enabled me to make a lot of confident decisions about livestock.

Yeah, I run grazing charts. I use KLR marketing, which is principle management of using principles to use management of your livestock. It's livestock, grass, and money, so managing those three things together. The cornerstone of KLR is your sell- buy, which is a complete swap around how everybody else works, but it's not a new concept that's in every commodity. It's in everything you sell- buy. All big operations work on sell- buy, not buy- sell. Farmers, for some reason, we work on buy- sell. We buy it to sell it, whereas everybody else sells to buy, so we are way behind eight- ball there. That's enabled me to make a lot of confident decisions about livestock.

Because you're selling into the same market you plan to buy into?

Because you're selling into the same market you plan to buy into?

Once you have the principles of KLR and sell- buy down or only buying, which the main one is sell the overpriced stock and buy the underpriced. Replace with underpriced. Once you have that system, doesn't matter if the market goes up, doesn't matter if the market goes down, doesn't matter if it rains, doesn't matter if it doesn't rain. Only thing that matters to you is you have to have the grass. It's automatic profit, but you have to not run out of grass. Grass management is the most important thing. People think the most important thing is what the prices you pay. No, the most important thing, the most opportunities you have is with your grass. Learning how to manage your grass through your feed budgets. I do a feed budget, I walk out and do a feed budget, a grass budget. I shouldn't call it a feed budget, because people think of grain when they think of feed and what you're feeding out. I don't feed any grain out. I have no intention to feed any grain out, any hay. I just use what's in the paddock, what nature gives me for nothing, and it is the best thing. That's what the animal craves, and that's what it wants. That comes down to the other things. You need to build diversity into your grasses, into your plants. Once you have diversity, your stock do so much better.

Once you have the principles of KLR and sell- buy down or only buying, which the main one is sell the overpriced stock and buy the underpriced. Replace with underpriced. Once you have that system, doesn't matter if the market goes up, doesn't matter if the market goes down, doesn't matter if it rains, doesn't matter if it doesn't rain. Only thing that matters to you is you have to have the grass. It's automatic profit, but you have to not run out of grass. Grass management is the most important thing. People think the most important thing is what the prices you pay. No, the most important thing, the most opportunities you have is with your grass. Learning how to manage your grass through your feed budgets. I do a feed budget, I walk out and do a feed budget, a grass budget. I shouldn't call it a feed budget, because people think of grain when they think of feed and what you're feeding out. I don't feed any grain out. I have no intention to feed any grain out, any hay. I just use what's in the paddock, what nature gives me for nothing, and it is the best thing. That's what the animal craves, and that's what it wants. That comes down to the other things. You need to build diversity into your grasses, into your plants. Once you have diversity, your stock do so much better.

You are seeing that happen naturally.

You are seeing that happen naturally.

Naturally. It wants to be diverse, nature wants to heal itself. It's continually trying to heal itself to the mistakes you make with it. Once you leave it alone... This is the biggest problem we have in Australian agriculture, is we won't leave things alone. If we're not doing something, we're doing it wrong.

Naturally. It wants to be diverse, nature wants to heal itself. It's continually trying to heal itself to the mistakes you make with it. Once you leave it alone... This is the biggest problem we have in Australian agriculture, is we won't leave things alone. If we're not doing something, we're doing it wrong.

Yeah, that's true. Sometimes making a decision to do nothing...

Yeah, that's true. Sometimes making a decision to do nothing...

That is the hardest decision, and that's probably the most challenging decision to make, to do nothing. That's the biggest one I had battled with too, was to do nothing. For me, I was lucky that... The mulching allowed me to get through that stage.

That is the hardest decision, and that's probably the most challenging decision to make, to do nothing. That's the biggest one I had battled with too, was to do nothing. For me, I was lucky that... The mulching allowed me to get through that stage.

Gave you something to do, yeah.

Gave you something to do, yeah.

Yeah. I still could give me a diesel fix, because cropping is an addiction. Everybody laughs and says that, but it is a real addiction. You just struggle to not to do it.

Yeah. I still could give me a diesel fix, because cropping is an addiction. Everybody laughs and says that, but it is a real addiction. You just struggle to not to do it.

It's rewarding, too-

It's rewarding, too-

Because it's a simple fix.

Because it's a simple fix.

You go out to do a job and the job gets done, and if that might be Kelly chaining, which isn't great often for soil structure, but you can look back and go, " Gee, that paddock looks good."

You go out to do a job and the job gets done, and if that might be Kelly chaining, which isn't great often for soil structure, but you can look back and go, " Gee, that paddock looks good."

Yeah, and you can look straight across the paddock. Whereas the system I've got now, I've got to get down on my hands and knees.

Yeah, and you can look straight across the paddock. Whereas the system I've got now, I've got to get down on my hands and knees.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's it. You look down, not across. Once you'd stop looking across your paddocks and look down at your paddocks, then that's the big difference, you see the big difference. Getting perenniality back into these soils has been the key. The lighter soils, the perenniality saves them, and the livestock do so much better on perennials than they do annuals. Annuals are a quick fix, they're just a drug. They give them that six weeks of big bang, and then it's like any drug, when you're coming off, it's no good. That's how it affects the animal. Has that big bang and then it's a drop down in nutrition. Big changes nutrition all the time. Whereas your perennials, they push through dry times, they push through frosts, they push through all weather conditions. If you've got your right balance, which nature will give you that balance, it's happy days and easy sailing, really. I can't emphasize how easy it really is. Just a few things, you just need you to have your toolbox of tools and to follow some easy principles of soil health and trading. With the KLR, your marketing, follow the principles, you'll never go wrong.

That's it. You look down, not across. Once you'd stop looking across your paddocks and look down at your paddocks, then that's the big difference, you see the big difference. Getting perenniality back into these soils has been the key. The lighter soils, the perenniality saves them, and the livestock do so much better on perennials than they do annuals. Annuals are a quick fix, they're just a drug. They give them that six weeks of big bang, and then it's like any drug, when you're coming off, it's no good. That's how it affects the animal. Has that big bang and then it's a drop down in nutrition. Big changes nutrition all the time. Whereas your perennials, they push through dry times, they push through frosts, they push through all weather conditions. If you've got your right balance, which nature will give you that balance, it's happy days and easy sailing, really. I can't emphasize how easy it really is. Just a few things, you just need you to have your toolbox of tools and to follow some easy principles of soil health and trading. With the KLR, your marketing, follow the principles, you'll never go wrong.

You're keeping it pretty simple.

You're keeping it pretty simple.

That's the biggest thing now, I'm following people who do things simply. Even though I'm working in a chaotic system with nature, but what I'm doing is simple, I'm trying to do it simply, so chaos and simplicity together works. The other way around doesn't work, when you try and simplify nature, and chaos at the other end on your side. When you try and simplify nature, it's chaotic on your side, so I swap it around

That's the biggest thing now, I'm following people who do things simply. Even though I'm working in a chaotic system with nature, but what I'm doing is simple, I'm trying to do it simply, so chaos and simplicity together works. The other way around doesn't work, when you try and simplify nature, and chaos at the other end on your side. When you try and simplify nature, it's chaotic on your side, so I swap it around

For the listener, Terry's just sitting here chilled, laying back in his chair talking about it, too. You can visibly see the change in him over the years.

For the listener, Terry's just sitting here chilled, laying back in his chair talking about it, too. You can visibly see the change in him over the years.

Yeah, yeah. Someone asked me, " What was the light bulb moment?" I haven't had a light bulb moment. Just little things over time have just got away with me, and I'm one of those lucky people that can accept change. You have four character types and I'm in a lucky character type that accepts change very easily, and then there's people who can't accept change and they're never going to. It's very stressful for them, change, and that's just the unfortunate nature of things.

Yeah, yeah. Someone asked me, " What was the light bulb moment?" I haven't had a light bulb moment. Just little things over time have just got away with me, and I'm one of those lucky people that can accept change. You have four character types and I'm in a lucky character type that accepts change very easily, and then there's people who can't accept change and they're never going to. It's very stressful for them, change, and that's just the unfortunate nature of things.

Everyone's different, aren't they?

Everyone's different, aren't they?

Yeah, everybody's different. Everybody's different, but everybody's the same.

Yeah, everybody's different. Everybody's different, but everybody's the same.

There's ways around that, too. Even though you're saying you had your mulcher and then you've just bought an Optiway too, so that's another way of utilizing technology. You're still keeping things simple, but you've got another tool there that can help you, and you're actively using that to make decisions every day, too.

There's ways around that, too. Even though you're saying you had your mulcher and then you've just bought an Optiway too, so that's another way of utilizing technology. You're still keeping things simple, but you've got another tool there that can help you, and you're actively using that to make decisions every day, too.

I am now. Probably bought it for different reasons what other people buy their Optiway. The Optiway is, for the people who don't know, it's an in- paddock weighing device for cattle. There is one for sheep now, but it's not as successful as the cattle one. The cattle come on, put their two front feet on it, there's an attractor in, I just use salt, plain salt, which I have out for all stock 24/7, 12 months a year. That weighs that individual animal, takes its ear tag number, its IOD number, and then goes to the satellite, goes back to the office in Armadale, where it's all collated, then it gets sent. I get an email every morning of what the cattle have done, what the cattle have been on it, and what they weigh. Top, bottom, what the weight gain is. For me, what I'm using for at the moment, which I didn't think really... I thought it was all going to be about weights, what the weight of the cattle were. The changes in weight gain is so stark from climatic conditions, rain events. The drop is incredible. You look at my stock, there's no way you can tell that my stock have actually been losing a kilo a day. They've been losing a kilo a day since it started raining three weeks ago, because there's changes happening with the grasses and their gut we can't see. They're healthy, but they've dropped a kilo a day, because they look fantastic. They're shiny and look fantastic, but they'll put on two and a half kilos at some time.

I am now. Probably bought it for different reasons what other people buy their Optiway. The Optiway is, for the people who don't know, it's an in- paddock weighing device for cattle. There is one for sheep now, but it's not as successful as the cattle one. The cattle come on, put their two front feet on it, there's an attractor in, I just use salt, plain salt, which I have out for all stock 24/7, 12 months a year. That weighs that individual animal, takes its ear tag number, its IOD number, and then goes to the satellite, goes back to the office in Armadale, where it's all collated, then it gets sent. I get an email every morning of what the cattle have done, what the cattle have been on it, and what they weigh. Top, bottom, what the weight gain is. For me, what I'm using for at the moment, which I didn't think really... I thought it was all going to be about weights, what the weight of the cattle were. The changes in weight gain is so stark from climatic conditions, rain events. The drop is incredible. You look at my stock, there's no way you can tell that my stock have actually been losing a kilo a day. They've been losing a kilo a day since it started raining three weeks ago, because there's changes happening with the grasses and their gut we can't see. They're healthy, but they've dropped a kilo a day, because they look fantastic. They're shiny and look fantastic, but they'll put on two and a half kilos at some time.

It gives you a better understanding of what's happening to the pasture.

It gives you a better understanding of what's happening to the pasture.

Yeah, it gives me a total understanding of what's happening. This is the weird thing. The best growth rates I had was when it was at the driest, and I thought the feed was going off and I thought, "Oh, no. It's no good," but it was actually cured. The grass was cured and it was amazing. As soon as it rained and I thought, " It's a rain, I've got this great flush of feed." No, the complete opposite.

Yeah, it gives me a total understanding of what's happening. This is the weird thing. The best growth rates I had was when it was at the driest, and I thought the feed was going off and I thought, "Oh, no. It's no good," but it was actually cured. The grass was cured and it was amazing. As soon as it rained and I thought, " It's a rain, I've got this great flush of feed." No, the complete opposite.

I know we said we don't over- complicate things, but it'd be really interesting to get some nutrient testing done to try and correlate that, but it wouldn't change the decisions you're making. What do you do then in those cases? You're just aware of it? If you were fattening stock, you would move them elsewhere?

I know we said we don't over- complicate things, but it'd be really interesting to get some nutrient testing done to try and correlate that, but it wouldn't change the decisions you're making. What do you do then in those cases? You're just aware of it? If you were fattening stock, you would move them elsewhere?

Wouldn't add a jazz, because it's just what happens. If I'd got them into the yards and weighed them, they would've lost more weight getting them into the yards away for a start, but I wouldn't have had a clue what had happened. I would've said, "It must have worked," and would've bloody drenched them. Probably something like we had. It must be a reason why, but I can see straight away, within an hour, that the climatic conditions have changed, and when the barometer drops, it's the same again. When the barometer drops, their weight gain drops too, stark. There's a lot of things we don't know what's happening with animals, and it's a big eye- opener for me. Yes, so what it tells me at the moment, I've just got to make sure I've got the nutrition of those animals looked after. Moving forward, I need to have probably less focus on what's actually in front of them, and just think that's what's going to happen to probably become that chaos again. Chaos is in nature and this is a chaotic thing. If we look at weight gain, we narrow it down to the 0.7, which is the Australian national average of 0. 7, but everybody... I've never known anybody who had 0. 7. Everybody's over a kilogram, I'm sure, and that's what they say, once everybody gets over a kilo until they get an Optiway, and then it comes back to 0. 7, because you're actually measuring it.

Wouldn't add a jazz, because it's just what happens. If I'd got them into the yards and weighed them, they would've lost more weight getting them into the yards away for a start, but I wouldn't have had a clue what had happened. I would've said, "It must have worked," and would've bloody drenched them. Probably something like we had. It must be a reason why, but I can see straight away, within an hour, that the climatic conditions have changed, and when the barometer drops, it's the same again. When the barometer drops, their weight gain drops too, stark. There's a lot of things we don't know what's happening with animals, and it's a big eye- opener for me. Yes, so what it tells me at the moment, I've just got to make sure I've got the nutrition of those animals looked after. Moving forward, I need to have probably less focus on what's actually in front of them, and just think that's what's going to happen to probably become that chaos again. Chaos is in nature and this is a chaotic thing. If we look at weight gain, we narrow it down to the 0.7, which is the Australian national average of 0. 7, but everybody... I've never known anybody who had 0. 7. Everybody's over a kilogram, I'm sure, and that's what they say, once everybody gets over a kilo until they get an Optiway, and then it comes back to 0. 7, because you're actually measuring it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The animal itself can't put on 0. 7 a kilo a day, the fluctuations is huge through everything involved, so I'm still learning what I'm doing with that Optiway at the moment, because it's been a bit of a shock to me this last four, five weeks of the differences in it. When I look at the stock and they're healthy, doing so well, so content, but their bodies haven't adjusted yet. Their guts are changing over. There's a fight happening in their stomachs between these dry feed gut bugs and the green feed bugs, must be causing all this. When one does win, when there's more dry feed and then green feed and its population takes over, then bang, then you'll get the compensatory gain in the weight gain. The compensatory gain can be incredible. You can get three kilos compensatory gain in a short period of time.

The animal itself can't put on 0. 7 a kilo a day, the fluctuations is huge through everything involved, so I'm still learning what I'm doing with that Optiway at the moment, because it's been a bit of a shock to me this last four, five weeks of the differences in it. When I look at the stock and they're healthy, doing so well, so content, but their bodies haven't adjusted yet. Their guts are changing over. There's a fight happening in their stomachs between these dry feed gut bugs and the green feed bugs, must be causing all this. When one does win, when there's more dry feed and then green feed and its population takes over, then bang, then you'll get the compensatory gain in the weight gain. The compensatory gain can be incredible. You can get three kilos compensatory gain in a short period of time.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Yeah. That's all through the gut, the bugs in the gut in the rumen.

Yeah. That's all through the gut, the bugs in the gut in the rumen.

I guess, you lining this up with your grazing charts as well, it'll help you make decisions in the future too. Well, and when I say future, I mean trading in the next few months.

I guess, you lining this up with your grazing charts as well, it'll help you make decisions in the future too. Well, and when I say future, I mean trading in the next few months.

Yes, but you still need to go out and do that grass budget. You can't get tied up where your benchmark is on your grazing chart. You need to do that grass budget.

Yes, but you still need to go out and do that grass budget. You can't get tied up where your benchmark is on your grazing chart. You need to do that grass budget.

How long does a grass budget take you now? Because they can be confronting when you're first learning how to do a grass budget.

How long does a grass budget take you now? Because they can be confronting when you're first learning how to do a grass budget.

Well, for me, it's a drive over the pack. I walk out of the pack. I can tell if a paddocks at 400 DC days or 800 DC days or 1500 DC days down straight away.

Well, for me, it's a drive over the pack. I walk out of the pack. I can tell if a paddocks at 400 DC days or 800 DC days or 1500 DC days down straight away.

No time now-

No time now-

No time at all.

No time at all.

... once you've done it.

... once you've done it.

I did it properly to start with and just taught myself, because I had the knowledge anyway. I've been looking at livestock all my life and grass all my life. Really quick transition to me to be able to do it properly, but still, I get caught... This is where the Optiway comes in. I get caught on the quality of that feed, so that's where I'm hoping that that'll be able to tell me straight what the quality is like. Even the green feed, quality is not there and the transition in between winter and summer feed would be the same, or the autumn. It's not really winter and summer. It should transition your autumn transition and your spring transition, which is... Well, you spring into summer transition is more your problem with your nutrition in your feed, but it's just all a learning curve.

I did it properly to start with and just taught myself, because I had the knowledge anyway. I've been looking at livestock all my life and grass all my life. Really quick transition to me to be able to do it properly, but still, I get caught... This is where the Optiway comes in. I get caught on the quality of that feed, so that's where I'm hoping that that'll be able to tell me straight what the quality is like. Even the green feed, quality is not there and the transition in between winter and summer feed would be the same, or the autumn. It's not really winter and summer. It should transition your autumn transition and your spring transition, which is... Well, you spring into summer transition is more your problem with your nutrition in your feed, but it's just all a learning curve.

How do you pick which mob to... Because you've got the two mobs, which mob has the Optiway?

How do you pick which mob to... Because you've got the two mobs, which mob has the Optiway?

I rotate it between what I feel like.

I rotate it between what I feel like.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I just moved it yesterday to a little... I bought a few Speckle Park cows a couple weeks ago and I've just chucked it in there to see what weight they were, just to get them used to it. Yeah, ideally, you'd have two. If money wasn't a problem, you have two in each mob, but I'll get down to one mob. That's the plan. I'll get down to one mob, so it'll just stay in there. I run a mixed mob, so I don't wean anymore. The calves stay on, and if the mom doesn't wean it and she doesn't get back into calf, or that mom then goes. Well, that's what I've done this year. I've run very hard my cattle this year. Probably because I want to find out what's happening with my cattle. I make other mistakes with other people's cattle, which is another way of doing it, use other people's stock to make mistakes. I've run mine really hard this year. Not the paddocks, not the grass. I've run my grass hard, I've just run the stock hard, which is completely different. Just find out how fertile they are. The true fertility.

I just moved it yesterday to a little... I bought a few Speckle Park cows a couple weeks ago and I've just chucked it in there to see what weight they were, just to get them used to it. Yeah, ideally, you'd have two. If money wasn't a problem, you have two in each mob, but I'll get down to one mob. That's the plan. I'll get down to one mob, so it'll just stay in there. I run a mixed mob, so I don't wean anymore. The calves stay on, and if the mom doesn't wean it and she doesn't get back into calf, or that mom then goes. Well, that's what I've done this year. I've run very hard my cattle this year. Probably because I want to find out what's happening with my cattle. I make other mistakes with other people's cattle, which is another way of doing it, use other people's stock to make mistakes. I've run mine really hard this year. Not the paddocks, not the grass. I've run my grass hard, I've just run the stock hard, which is completely different. Just find out how fertile they are. The true fertility.

What do you mean by you've run them hard?

What do you mean by you've run them hard?

Well, I've been running probably forward store condition, whereas most cattle have been fat this year. In the last 12 months, I've run them at forward store to store condition. Their body score has been around two to three to see, if they can cope with a nutrient stress on the animal to see what happens. What happened with the weaners was fantastic. Top to sale, I've been topping the sale for the last three years with my weaners. Did it again a couple of weeks ago. The weight gain's no worries at all, so their moms have worked hard to put the milk through those. Some cows have got two calves on them, and I've left the heifers in as well this year. I've joined the heifers and the cows all with the same bulls, which is completely different than what I've ever done before.

Well, I've been running probably forward store condition, whereas most cattle have been fat this year. In the last 12 months, I've run them at forward store to store condition. Their body score has been around two to three to see, if they can cope with a nutrient stress on the animal to see what happens. What happened with the weaners was fantastic. Top to sale, I've been topping the sale for the last three years with my weaners. Did it again a couple of weeks ago. The weight gain's no worries at all, so their moms have worked hard to put the milk through those. Some cows have got two calves on them, and I've left the heifers in as well this year. I've joined the heifers and the cows all with the same bulls, which is completely different than what I've ever done before.

Yeah. Normally, you'd use smaller bulls?

Yeah. Normally, you'd use smaller bulls?

Normally, I have in the past, used a specific... Just to put an extra stress on that as well. We've bred stocks that aren't hardy enough.

Normally, I have in the past, used a specific... Just to put an extra stress on that as well. We've bred stocks that aren't hardy enough.

Yeah. Instead of breeding the stock to cope with the conditions, we've tried changing the conditions, which is-

Yeah. Instead of breeding the stock to cope with the conditions, we've tried changing the conditions, which is-

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not fighting nature now, this is what nature... Nature will tell me what size cattle I can have, and if that cow's not fertile enough, it's a win for me, because it's cashflow in my bank. I'm pretty open, I'm open when I come through it. I don't think I'm going to see it, though. It's got a very fertile herd.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not fighting nature now, this is what nature... Nature will tell me what size cattle I can have, and if that cow's not fertile enough, it's a win for me, because it's cashflow in my bank. I'm pretty open, I'm open when I come through it. I don't think I'm going to see it, though. It's got a very fertile herd.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

If I get 75% pregnancy rate, I would be quite happy, because it'd be a big boost to my wallet, but I don't think I'm going to see that. I think I'm going to see 95 to 90%, just looking at the cattle themselves and just from passing things I've done. I just want to make sure. I'm throwing them out to 300 kilos, have been off for the last three years. I'd like to get that. Now I've got the Optiway, I'm going to get them off at 250, hopefully. Well, 250 and not take them to the 300.

If I get 75% pregnancy rate, I would be quite happy, because it'd be a big boost to my wallet, but I don't think I'm going to see that. I think I'm going to see 95 to 90%, just looking at the cattle themselves and just from passing things I've done. I just want to make sure. I'm throwing them out to 300 kilos, have been off for the last three years. I'd like to get that. Now I've got the Optiway, I'm going to get them off at 250, hopefully. Well, 250 and not take them to the 300.

Yeah, so weaning them onto the truck?

Yeah, so weaning them onto the truck?

Weaning them onto the truck.

Weaning them onto the truck.

Yeah, great.

Yeah, great.

The big difference I see now with my stock, when they go into the yards, they don't act like stock that have been weaned onto the truck. They make no noise and they're very calm, very easy to handle at the yards at Forbes, and that was the big eye- opener to me. I did this a few years ago, not by choice, but by what happened, I didn't wean up the calves. I just noticed then, when I thought they're going to play up, when they got there, they were calm. The cows were a bit different home. They stressed about... They'd lost their calf, walked around, because they were such good mothers, but the calves themselves weren't worried about it at all. It was quite amazing. I've looked at that now two years running and they're so calm in there. You would've thought that they'd been weaned... You'd say that people would've said, " No, there's definitely been yard weaned two to three weeks and being fed and all this, and they're so calm. They're not bellowing." All the other animals in the yard are bellowing away the same age, same weight size, they're bellowing. Mind you, I have changed the way I handle my stock, too. I've done this low- stress stock handling.

The big difference I see now with my stock, when they go into the yards, they don't act like stock that have been weaned onto the truck. They make no noise and they're very calm, very easy to handle at the yards at Forbes, and that was the big eye- opener to me. I did this a few years ago, not by choice, but by what happened, I didn't wean up the calves. I just noticed then, when I thought they're going to play up, when they got there, they were calm. The cows were a bit different home. They stressed about... They'd lost their calf, walked around, because they were such good mothers, but the calves themselves weren't worried about it at all. It was quite amazing. I've looked at that now two years running and they're so calm in there. You would've thought that they'd been weaned... You'd say that people would've said, " No, there's definitely been yard weaned two to three weeks and being fed and all this, and they're so calm. They're not bellowing." All the other animals in the yard are bellowing away the same age, same weight size, they're bellowing. Mind you, I have changed the way I handle my stock, too. I've done this low- stress stock handling.

That's what I was going to say. They've had no stress, really.

That's what I was going to say. They've had no stress, really.

That's another toolbox for me. Another tool and toolbox is a low- stress stock handling. It's imprinting a stress- free life from birth, and that's an amazing advantage. I notice so much difference with the stock that have come in.

That's another toolbox for me. Another tool and toolbox is a low- stress stock handling. It's imprinting a stress- free life from birth, and that's an amazing advantage. I notice so much difference with the stock that have come in.

I think, across the board, people have got better at that. You go to the yards now and there's just... If you get there early, there's livestock moving calmly and quietly through the lanes and there's not a lot of yahooing.

I think, across the board, people have got better at that. You go to the yards now and there's just... If you get there early, there's livestock moving calmly and quietly through the lanes and there's not a lot of yahooing.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think all of that value- adds to someone like you, too. They've had no stress there, why would they be scared about the truck? They get to the yards, there's not people hitting them with poly and carrying on, and it's all time-

I think all of that value- adds to someone like you, too. They've had no stress there, why would they be scared about the truck? They get to the yards, there's not people hitting them with poly and carrying on, and it's all time-

Yeah, I've got to say, I've had a lot of trucks coming in and out of here in the last four years, and I just take my hat off to the truck drivers. They do it, because they love handling stock. I reckon it's the worst job of all, bloody stocky truck driver, but they just love handling stock and they treat them with so much respect.

Yeah, I've got to say, I've had a lot of trucks coming in and out of here in the last four years, and I just take my hat off to the truck drivers. They do it, because they love handling stock. I reckon it's the worst job of all, bloody stocky truck driver, but they just love handling stock and they treat them with so much respect.

They're so good at it.

They're so good at it.

They're so good, yeah. I have not had a bad one. I've probably had 15, 20 B- double drivers come through here from different companies from all over the place, and they're all fantastic.

They're so good, yeah. I have not had a bad one. I've probably had 15, 20 B- double drivers come through here from different companies from all over the place, and they're all fantastic.

Yeah, I'm seeing that, too. The changes from when I was a child. I'm not opposed to using a jigger, I think they have a place-

Yeah, I'm seeing that, too. The changes from when I was a child. I'm not opposed to using a jigger, I think they have a place-

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

... but just the way people utilize those tools and the way they move through the yards has changed completely, I think, in the last 10, 20 years.

... but just the way people utilize those tools and the way they move through the yards has changed completely, I think, in the last 10, 20 years.

It's great to see. As you said, and when you gather the yards there, they move so easily and quietly. Yeah, no one has a bit of poly pipe anymore. Thank God.

It's great to see. As you said, and when you gather the yards there, they move so easily and quietly. Yeah, no one has a bit of poly pipe anymore. Thank God.

We should talk a little bit about Condo Landcare. You are working as a consultant or are you employed by Condo Landcare now as an advisor?

We should talk a little bit about Condo Landcare. You are working as a consultant or are you employed by Condo Landcare now as an advisor?

Well, I like to describe myself as the grazing group contact person.

Well, I like to describe myself as the grazing group contact person.

Okay. It's a very unofficial title.

Okay. It's a very unofficial title.

Well just to be quite upfront, so I am on the books for an hour a week with Landcare.

Well just to be quite upfront, so I am on the books for an hour a week with Landcare.

You do more than that just in our grazing chart.

You do more than that just in our grazing chart.

Yeah, yeah. That covers me for insurance reasons. I do all the coordination between the group and speakers, and everything in between. Role I really love.

Yeah, yeah. That covers me for insurance reasons. I do all the coordination between the group and speakers, and everything in between. Role I really love.

We've got a good little group.

We've got a good little group.

We have a great group.

We have a great group.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Fantastic. The knowledge in there is amazing.

Fantastic. The knowledge in there is amazing.

I know. When we first started talking about this, I thought, " How are we going to get people to come?"

I know. When we first started talking about this, I thought, " How are we going to get people to come?"

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

But even just for us, with the few numbers we have, that extra confidence I get and motivation every time we catch up or there's something on the chat about a grazing budget or something, it's just that little bit of peace of mind that there's people who've got your back to help you through some decisions.

But even just for us, with the few numbers we have, that extra confidence I get and motivation every time we catch up or there's something on the chat about a grazing budget or something, it's just that little bit of peace of mind that there's people who've got your back to help you through some decisions.

Everybody's so supportive and we're all different. We all have different shows, I don't push what I do on anybody-

Everybody's so supportive and we're all different. We all have different shows, I don't push what I do on anybody-

No.

No.

... because what works for me works for me.

... because what works for me works for me.

Some piece of advice or, "This is what I did and it went wrong," or, " This works for me." I'm loving it.

Some piece of advice or, "This is what I did and it went wrong," or, " This works for me." I'm loving it.

I really come away energized every time I speak to anybody about it, and as I said, you don't have to uptake, do everything to my level.

I really come away energized every time I speak to anybody about it, and as I said, you don't have to uptake, do everything to my level.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

I'm probably going to be extreme compared to anybody else in the group, the way I manage the place, but everybody knows their own place so much better than anybody else.

I'm probably going to be extreme compared to anybody else in the group, the way I manage the place, but everybody knows their own place so much better than anybody else.

That's right.

That's right.

That's what I'm trying to foster in the group, that you know your place better than anybody else. I think, to me, that's probably been the most rewarding, seeing people realize that, that they do have the knowledge. They've lacked the thoughts that they didn't know what was happening on their place, because someone... A lot of people have used the... Don't get me wrong, growers have a fantastic role in agriculture, but it's taken a lot of the independence away from people, their thought processes of how to go through how to make decisions, and as farmers or as people, decision making doesn't come natural to everybody.

That's what I'm trying to foster in the group, that you know your place better than anybody else. I think, to me, that's probably been the most rewarding, seeing people realize that, that they do have the knowledge. They've lacked the thoughts that they didn't know what was happening on their place, because someone... A lot of people have used the... Don't get me wrong, growers have a fantastic role in agriculture, but it's taken a lot of the independence away from people, their thought processes of how to go through how to make decisions, and as farmers or as people, decision making doesn't come natural to everybody.

That is true, and you get caught in a cycle that's very consistent.

That is true, and you get caught in a cycle that's very consistent.

Yeah, yeah. That's something that you can't quantify easily. That's the biggest thing for me that I've seen, the growth of people's decisions making, sound decisions based on the principles that we can give them in Landcare to work on when you follow those principles. Takes a guesswork out of decision making, and making a decision quite easy and less stressful. The key to what we're doing with our type of management is we have principles we can follow. Ever I have a problem here, I think starts going back to my old ways, I have to stop myself and just look at what the principles are of soil health, " What are my KLR principles? What are my principles that I follow as a person?" If anybody can change like I've changed, anybody can change, which is great.

Yeah, yeah. That's something that you can't quantify easily. That's the biggest thing for me that I've seen, the growth of people's decisions making, sound decisions based on the principles that we can give them in Landcare to work on when you follow those principles. Takes a guesswork out of decision making, and making a decision quite easy and less stressful. The key to what we're doing with our type of management is we have principles we can follow. Ever I have a problem here, I think starts going back to my old ways, I have to stop myself and just look at what the principles are of soil health, " What are my KLR principles? What are my principles that I follow as a person?" If anybody can change like I've changed, anybody can change, which is great.

Knowing what your goal is and not just, " My goal is to make money," and that's all the principles are.

Knowing what your goal is and not just, " My goal is to make money," and that's all the principles are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The goals that you live by or the goals that you manage by.

The goals that you live by or the goals that you manage by.

That's your personal principles, right? You've got to get that sorted first.

That's your personal principles, right? You've got to get that sorted first.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's what I did early on, worked out what really my principle was. You can call them goals, you can call them whatever. Don't get me wrong, if you can't make money doing... It's one of my principles, I have to make a profit in what I'm doing.

That's what I did early on, worked out what really my principle was. You can call them goals, you can call them whatever. Don't get me wrong, if you can't make money doing... It's one of my principles, I have to make a profit in what I'm doing.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

A lot of people in the areas that we're in don't focus enough on that. Make claims that they can't follow up, because they can't make it go down the profitable line. Whereas everything I do has to be profitable. The more you simplify and reduce your inputs, the more profitable you are straight away.

A lot of people in the areas that we're in don't focus enough on that. Make claims that they can't follow up, because they can't make it go down the profitable line. Whereas everything I do has to be profitable. The more you simplify and reduce your inputs, the more profitable you are straight away.

I think that's one thing about the group, is that it gives people the confidence to, one, admit that we're about money and the confidence to make those decisions to back that up based on what their principles and goals are.

I think that's one thing about the group, is that it gives people the confidence to, one, admit that we're about money and the confidence to make those decisions to back that up based on what their principles and goals are.

If you can't be profitable with your principles, you are not going to be influencing anything. You're not going to be helping yourself, you're not going to be helping nature, you're not going to be helping the community. You're a bit of a waste of space, really.

If you can't be profitable with your principles, you are not going to be influencing anything. You're not going to be helping yourself, you're not going to be helping nature, you're not going to be helping the community. You're a bit of a waste of space, really.

That's so true.

That's so true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've got a grazing group, what's the plan for it for the future?

We've got a grazing group, what's the plan for it for the future?

Big plans, I don't do little plans, but the most exciting one for me this year will be just going to run a sole lady grazing day.

Big plans, I don't do little plans, but the most exciting one for me this year will be just going to run a sole lady grazing day.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, which is in the process now. I've got male keel down as being our-

Yeah, which is in the process now. I've got male keel down as being our-

Fabulous.

Fabulous.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So inspiring.

So inspiring.

She's fantastic. Yep, she is.

She's fantastic. Yep, she is.

Just absolutely knows her stuff, does it with such confidence and grace, and I just love catching up with her, because one of those people you walk away from, you're just so motivated.

Just absolutely knows her stuff, does it with such confidence and grace, and I just love catching up with her, because one of those people you walk away from, you're just so motivated.

Yeah, yeah. You feel enjoys in, and she has just had it all about her, don't she? Yeah. She'll take the day. At this stage, you'll be here at Four Corners, but if you can find anybody else who wants to take it on, that'd be fantastic.

Yeah, yeah. You feel enjoys in, and she has just had it all about her, don't she? Yeah. She'll take the day. At this stage, you'll be here at Four Corners, but if you can find anybody else who wants to take it on, that'd be fantastic.

Sure. Anyone who's keen, give me a call.

Sure. Anyone who's keen, give me a call.

I haven't approached anybody else about it yet, because I just thought it probably easy from my logistic side.

I haven't approached anybody else about it yet, because I just thought it probably easy from my logistic side.

It is, and it's quite essential. I mean, I know you're not near a town as such, but for travel, it's fine.

It is, and it's quite essential. I mean, I know you're not near a town as such, but for travel, it's fine.

We're not near a town, the house itself is big enough. Weather's not going to worry, so that's the biggest thing.

We're not near a town, the house itself is big enough. Weather's not going to worry, so that's the biggest thing.

Yeah, that'll be great. I'm really looking forward to that.

Yeah, that'll be great. I'm really looking forward to that.

This is the first time you've come out of here, you're having more rain with you, too.

This is the first time you've come out of here, you're having more rain with you, too.

It's one of the first times recently where I haven't had to pull up at the creek and wait a while before I can get through.

It's one of the first times recently where I haven't had to pull up at the creek and wait a while before I can get through.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Sorry, I'll work on-

Sorry, I'll work on-

Well, I'll expect the storm this afternoon or tomorrow.

Well, I'll expect the storm this afternoon or tomorrow.

Yeah, hopefully.

Yeah, hopefully.

Yeah. That's the exciting thing for us, to get some more connection. I love using this term, we need to be exclusive to be inclusive.

Yeah. That's the exciting thing for us, to get some more connection. I love using this term, we need to be exclusive to be inclusive.

Yes, I like that.

Yes, I like that.

I don't know where I heard it. Well, I didn't make it up. I heard it somewhere else, I'm sure, but what we're trying to do is to make the grazing group more inclusive, so make it a friendly place for everybody.

I don't know where I heard it. Well, I didn't make it up. I heard it somewhere else, I'm sure, but what we're trying to do is to make the grazing group more inclusive, so make it a friendly place for everybody.

Yeah. I'm a lot more open- minded about women's... I get really frustrated that sometimes it feels like the men are forgotten, but then I go to a workshop, there'll be four women, I'm one of the outspoken ones, and some of them aren't confident to speak up.

Yeah. I'm a lot more open- minded about women's... I get really frustrated that sometimes it feels like the men are forgotten, but then I go to a workshop, there'll be four women, I'm one of the outspoken ones, and some of them aren't confident to speak up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As you say, we do need to be exclusive to be inclusive to help people build that confidence. Yeah, I agree.

As you say, we do need to be exclusive to be inclusive to help people build that confidence. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah. I won't even be here on the day, I'm going out and do some of my own stuff-

Yeah. I won't even be here on the day, I'm going out and do some of my own stuff-

All right. Okay, yeah.

All right. Okay, yeah.

Do my own stuff. Your mail will just run everything and I'm sure you'll help her too, Jas. I'll give you things to do, and our great chair at Landcare, Ruth Allen, who's fantastic.

Do my own stuff. Your mail will just run everything and I'm sure you'll help her too, Jas. I'll give you things to do, and our great chair at Landcare, Ruth Allen, who's fantastic.

Yeah. She's another one that's inspiring.

Yeah. She's another one that's inspiring.

Yeah, incredible. What she's done for Landcare, in her and Brian. That's the big one for me, and then we'll stick to our normal... What we're trying to change, maybe our normal process of four seasonal meetings a year on different places. Very excited for me. I've now cultured a good working relationship with Ragerie Canoban Corporation.

Yeah, incredible. What she's done for Landcare, in her and Brian. That's the big one for me, and then we'll stick to our normal... What we're trying to change, maybe our normal process of four seasonal meetings a year on different places. Very excited for me. I've now cultured a good working relationship with Ragerie Canoban Corporation.

Yeah, they're great to work with.

Yeah, they're great to work with.

Yeah, which is going to be fantastic for Landcare. I don't know how this hasn't happened in the past.

Yeah, which is going to be fantastic for Landcare. I don't know how this hasn't happened in the past.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We haven't had any involvement and we just mesh so well together.

We haven't had any involvement and we just mesh so well together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a big thing for Landcare for me, and getting involved with the grazing group. I think, our next day, we'll probably be out at the Ragerie farm at Lake Howe, and there's a lot more things happening on that scale as well, getting involved with. If two people turned up, it's a success for me, really, because I know those two people are there to do something, to learn things.

That's a big thing for Landcare for me, and getting involved with the grazing group. I think, our next day, we'll probably be out at the Ragerie farm at Lake Howe, and there's a lot more things happening on that scale as well, getting involved with. If two people turned up, it's a success for me, really, because I know those two people are there to do something, to learn things.

That's right.

That's right.

50 people turn up, we've had 50 in the past, we can handle that too. That's no drivers.

50 people turn up, we've had 50 in the past, we can handle that too. That's no drivers.

Anyway, we might finish it up there, Terry. If anyone does want to get in contact with Terry, you can do that via Condo Landcare and we'll put contact details on the bottom of the podcast, or you can do that via me through LLS. Thank you so much for your time today, Terry.

Anyway, we might finish it up there, Terry. If anyone does want to get in contact with Terry, you can do that via Condo Landcare and we'll put contact details on the bottom of the podcast, or you can do that via me through LLS. Thank you so much for your time today, Terry.

Thanks, Jas. It's been a pleasure, thank you.

Thanks, Jas. It's been a pleasure, thank you.

This episode of Seeds for Success is supported by the Australian government through funding from the Natural Heritage Trust under the Climate Smart Agriculture Program, and delivered by Local Land Services, a member of the Commonwealth Regional Delivery Partners panel. Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you by Central West Local Land Services. Local Land Services delivers advice and support to farmers, landholders, and the community across New South Wales. To learn more, you can find us online by searching for Central West Local Land Services. If you'd like more information about the topics we discuss today, as well as links to relevant articles, fact sheets, events, and other helpful resources, we've added those into the show notes for this episode. You can find them by tapping or swiping over the cover art in your podcast player now. Hey, and while you're there, please leave us a five- star review. It really helps other farmers find the show. I'm your host, Neroli Brennan, and I'll chat to you next time.

This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host Neroli Brennan. Today we're chatting with Col Clapham. Col runs three properties with his wife and uncle across 5, 700 acres in the Ilford area with country that ranges from 700 to a thousand meters elevation. They help share the risk and manage available feed across their blocks using 1600 breeding ewes, 200 cows and 400 steers. In this episode, Col talks to us about the complexity of managing both native and improved pastures across the cooler high elevation country, where feed comes quickly but goes just as quickly and how the variability of soil types from sandy to rich basalt soils takes careful management to keep the pasture mix optimal for his production goals. You'll also hear how the introduction of technology is leading the way to help Col closely monitor his cattle and assess daily weight gains for quicker and more timely decisions on managing available feed and selling at the perfect Weight local land services Senior Ag advisor Lauren Costin caught up with Col inside his wool shed while a handy fall of rain fell outside.

This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host Neroli Brennan. Today we're chatting with Col Clapham. Col runs three properties with his wife and uncle across 5, 700 acres in the Ilford area with country that ranges from 700 to a thousand meters elevation. They help share the risk and manage available feed across their blocks using 1600 breeding ewes, 200 cows and 400 steers. In this episode, Col talks to us about the complexity of managing both native and improved pastures across the cooler high elevation country, where feed comes quickly but goes just as quickly and how the variability of soil types from sandy to rich basalt soils takes careful management to keep the pasture mix optimal for his production goals. You'll also hear how the introduction of technology is leading the way to help Col closely monitor his cattle and assess daily weight gains for quicker and more timely decisions on managing available feed and selling at the perfect Weight local land services Senior Ag advisor Lauren Costin caught up with Col inside his wool shed while a handy fall of rain fell outside.

Hey there listeners, today I'm with Col Clapham near Ilford East of Mudgee, New South Wales. Welcome to the Seeds for Success podcast, Col.

Hey there listeners, today I'm with Col Clapham near Ilford East of Mudgee, New South Wales. Welcome to the Seeds for Success podcast, Col.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

We might start off with you giving us a bit of an overview of the number of properties that you look after around the Ilford area.

We might start off with you giving us a bit of an overview of the number of properties that you look after around the Ilford area.

We look after three. Between my wife and I, we've got three or four really, but two of them are joined together, but one block we share farm with my uncle and it joins a block that we own ourself. My wife Eva looks after the two places that we own. One of them is 900 acres and the other one is 1, 000 and I look after an 1, 800 acre block that we lease and a 2, 000 acre block that we share farm with my uncle. They range anywhere from sort of 700 meters to 1, 100 meters. We have some pretty rocky country on a lease block, some lighter shaley, sort of stringy bark country, some sandy stringy bark country, and then we have a block of pretty heavy red basalt. So we've got most bases covered. As far as dirt goes, yeah, there's about 5, 700 acres total I suppose, thereabouts.

We look after three. Between my wife and I, we've got three or four really, but two of them are joined together, but one block we share farm with my uncle and it joins a block that we own ourself. My wife Eva looks after the two places that we own. One of them is 900 acres and the other one is 1, 000 and I look after an 1, 800 acre block that we lease and a 2, 000 acre block that we share farm with my uncle. They range anywhere from sort of 700 meters to 1, 100 meters. We have some pretty rocky country on a lease block, some lighter shaley, sort of stringy bark country, some sandy stringy bark country, and then we have a block of pretty heavy red basalt. So we've got most bases covered. As far as dirt goes, yeah, there's about 5, 700 acres total I suppose, thereabouts.

And grazing livestock?

And grazing livestock?

Yeah, we were all sheep until recently and then my wife and I, we split ours and went half sheep, half cattle just to split a bit of risk. Basalt country, we got get summer rain, big bulk of feed. The cattle are more suited to that block we're finding. They sort of push right in and get that bulk of feed down and then the sheep behind them are doing a lot better. Uncle, he runs 400 trade steers and we run another 1, 200 ewes up there with those trade steers on that block. So in total we're probably 1, 600 breeding ewes. We've got 250 cows, 400 steers. We used to wean all our followers straight onto a truck, but we sort of got the blocks where we want them now. We can actually finish most of our followers off.

Yeah, we were all sheep until recently and then my wife and I, we split ours and went half sheep, half cattle just to split a bit of risk. Basalt country, we got get summer rain, big bulk of feed. The cattle are more suited to that block we're finding. They sort of push right in and get that bulk of feed down and then the sheep behind them are doing a lot better. Uncle, he runs 400 trade steers and we run another 1, 200 ewes up there with those trade steers on that block. So in total we're probably 1, 600 breeding ewes. We've got 250 cows, 400 steers. We used to wean all our followers straight onto a truck, but we sort of got the blocks where we want them now. We can actually finish most of our followers off.

So the end market for those?

So the end market for those?

Heifers we usually try to get out to 450, 500 kilos and in the cows, the steers we breed generally head into Mudgee as vealers around the same weight, sometimes a bit lighter if the job's good and most of the feedlot steers, background steers have been going up to Texas. All seems to be working all right. We actually kept our weather lambs back this year and they went into TFI and they did pretty well too.

Heifers we usually try to get out to 450, 500 kilos and in the cows, the steers we breed generally head into Mudgee as vealers around the same weight, sometimes a bit lighter if the job's good and most of the feedlot steers, background steers have been going up to Texas. All seems to be working all right. We actually kept our weather lambs back this year and they went into TFI and they did pretty well too.

So good season so far? Well, start of the year?

So good season so far? Well, start of the year?

Yeah, we had a dry spell before Christmas then we got 100 mils of rain in January, so things were good and then it just started to get dry again lately. But yeah, I think it'll get going now.

Yeah, we had a dry spell before Christmas then we got 100 mils of rain in January, so things were good and then it just started to get dry again lately. But yeah, I think it'll get going now.

Did you want to talk a little bit about, I guess, Ilford's its own little microclimate, isn't it?

Did you want to talk a little bit about, I guess, Ilford's its own little microclimate, isn't it?

Cold . It is, yeah. The house block at Ilford, it is quite light sandy country. There is a little bit of basalt up on the mountain, but the mountain's at 1, 000 or 1,100 meters so it can be quite cold. Your growing season up there is pretty short, but it's quick to respond country but quick to go too, you sort of... And come the end of May, the feed you've got is what you've got till mid- November, basically.

Cold . It is, yeah. The house block at Ilford, it is quite light sandy country. There is a little bit of basalt up on the mountain, but the mountain's at 1, 000 or 1,100 meters so it can be quite cold. Your growing season up there is pretty short, but it's quick to respond country but quick to go too, you sort of... And come the end of May, the feed you've got is what you've got till mid- November, basically.

So you are praying for a little bit more rain now to kick it along a little bit more?

So you are praying for a little bit more rain now to kick it along a little bit more?

A lot more rain now would be good.

A lot more rain now would be good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah. So no, the Ilford block, its a hard little ag. It's easy to manage whenever it's raining, but it can bite you pretty fast. It can. So two blocks over here they're a bit easier. The basalt, it's red, it's like all red country, it's boom or bust. The country up the flat or that shaley country, it's got a really good fertilizer history. It hangs on pretty good and a bit of summer rain, it kicks away pretty good too. We've been moving a few cattle around this year sort of chasing feed to Crudine country that we lease. It didn't have any rain at Christmas and so it's pretty ordinary down there. But we had good rain on the basalt, so cows are up here and there's not much actually down on the lease block at the moment. There's only 60 cows on 1, 800 acres.

But yeah. So no, the Ilford block, its a hard little ag. It's easy to manage whenever it's raining, but it can bite you pretty fast. It can. So two blocks over here they're a bit easier. The basalt, it's red, it's like all red country, it's boom or bust. The country up the flat or that shaley country, it's got a really good fertilizer history. It hangs on pretty good and a bit of summer rain, it kicks away pretty good too. We've been moving a few cattle around this year sort of chasing feed to Crudine country that we lease. It didn't have any rain at Christmas and so it's pretty ordinary down there. But we had good rain on the basalt, so cows are up here and there's not much actually down on the lease block at the moment. There's only 60 cows on 1, 800 acres.

Yeah. Have you done that kind of on purpose, got a bit of a combination to be able to spread that risk a little bit and make sure that you've got a bit of feed depending on what happens with the seasons? Or is it by chance?

Yeah. Have you done that kind of on purpose, got a bit of a combination to be able to spread that risk a little bit and make sure that you've got a bit of feed depending on what happens with the seasons? Or is it by chance?

It wasn't planned.

It wasn't planned.

We basically, especially when we were contracting and we've had to give up the contracting. Because we had kids, we were hungry for country I suppose, and we grabbed whatever we could get and so that's hence why we got blocks scattered here, there and everywhere. But the way it's worked out, you wouldn't, they're all within a 30K radius and you wouldn't think it would be that different. But yeah, it's some years it is that different. There's a big difference in 10Ks this year, so just depends on where the storms went.

We basically, especially when we were contracting and we've had to give up the contracting. Because we had kids, we were hungry for country I suppose, and we grabbed whatever we could get and so that's hence why we got blocks scattered here, there and everywhere. But the way it's worked out, you wouldn't, they're all within a 30K radius and you wouldn't think it would be that different. But yeah, it's some years it is that different. There's a big difference in 10Ks this year, so just depends on where the storms went.

And what about the differences in those pastures on those different block? You've got a bit of improved up this way and then you've got more native grasses in other areas.

And what about the differences in those pastures on those different block? You've got a bit of improved up this way and then you've got more native grasses in other areas.

The Ilford block, we've improved it as much as we can with chicory, Zulu clover, phalaris, cocksfoot and it's good there, but it is thirsty. All this country over here we share farm, it's 90% improved predominantly phalaris and cocksfoot and the basalt, it's half and half. It'll be half improved, half native and it works pretty good, because we get good feed off our improved, stuff in the spring and the autumn and we only need a sniff of rain of the summer and the native stuff comes green. microline , there's couple of paddocks are really good microline there and-

The Ilford block, we've improved it as much as we can with chicory, Zulu clover, phalaris, cocksfoot and it's good there, but it is thirsty. All this country over here we share farm, it's 90% improved predominantly phalaris and cocksfoot and the basalt, it's half and half. It'll be half improved, half native and it works pretty good, because we get good feed off our improved, stuff in the spring and the autumn and we only need a sniff of rain of the summer and the native stuff comes green. microline , there's couple of paddocks are really good microline there and-

It's beautiful up here, isn't it? Yeah.

It's beautiful up here, isn't it? Yeah.

The stock do really well off it, if you can just get... Like on the driveway, it was pretty dusty a week ago and the microline there, it's green now, 20 mils in four days and it's green.

The stock do really well off it, if you can just get... Like on the driveway, it was pretty dusty a week ago and the microline there, it's green now, 20 mils in four days and it's green.

Responded really well.

Responded really well.

It works pretty good. It's just a matter of moving what stock I suppose are taking priority at the time where they need to be.

It works pretty good. It's just a matter of moving what stock I suppose are taking priority at the time where they need to be.

What's your approach to the priorities across all the number of different properties and businesses that you're doing? How do you manage those priorities?

What's your approach to the priorities across all the number of different properties and businesses that you're doing? How do you manage those priorities?

Eva looks after the two we own and I from a distance try to keep an eye on it much to her disgust, but we both know where we want to be at the end of the day with our stock. We both have different views on how to get there, but yeah, we discuss where stock are going to go, where they're going to lamb. We plan our lamb and paddocks a long way out. As far as management on the share farm block, that's through gritted teeth at times, but our sheep are all autumn drop, so we're not really looking to punch weight into our lambs until the autumn. So when our spring flush comes, the emphasis really goes into the trade steers because there's a lot of steers being here through the winter that have been growing but aren't really performing. So in the spring a lot of weight goes in the steers and a lot of steers leave here between early November and early February. And then when the autumn break comes, the emphasis switches and we finish our lambs basically where the lambs emphasis goes back onto them. There's your generally crop coming out of the ground, so it's only another six or eight weeks and there'll be crop for the steers to go on. As long as we've got our lamb and paddock sorted now, we really just punch the weight into the lambs at the moment until early June. That'll be the cutoff. Whatever's not fat by early June we'll go to Dubbo or they'll be cutting their teeth.

Eva looks after the two we own and I from a distance try to keep an eye on it much to her disgust, but we both know where we want to be at the end of the day with our stock. We both have different views on how to get there, but yeah, we discuss where stock are going to go, where they're going to lamb. We plan our lamb and paddocks a long way out. As far as management on the share farm block, that's through gritted teeth at times, but our sheep are all autumn drop, so we're not really looking to punch weight into our lambs until the autumn. So when our spring flush comes, the emphasis really goes into the trade steers because there's a lot of steers being here through the winter that have been growing but aren't really performing. So in the spring a lot of weight goes in the steers and a lot of steers leave here between early November and early February. And then when the autumn break comes, the emphasis switches and we finish our lambs basically where the lambs emphasis goes back onto them. There's your generally crop coming out of the ground, so it's only another six or eight weeks and there'll be crop for the steers to go on. As long as we've got our lamb and paddock sorted now, we really just punch the weight into the lambs at the moment until early June. That'll be the cutoff. Whatever's not fat by early June we'll go to Dubbo or they'll be cutting their teeth.

So you're planning that I guess a little bit now to make sure and you know what feed cycle happens in the growth and making sure that you can match those high demand periods with some quality and quantity?

So you're planning that I guess a little bit now to make sure and you know what feed cycle happens in the growth and making sure that you can match those high demand periods with some quality and quantity?

Yeah, there's a lot of steers that are... They wouldn't be really performing at the moment because of whatever the better feed is I can find knows where the lambs are on it at the moment, but the steers are still ticking away. But looking at the Optiway, they're back at a kilo a day rather than at the peak they're up around that 2. 1, so they're still ticking away, but another six or eight weeks and they get on that oats, they'll get going again.

Yeah, there's a lot of steers that are... They wouldn't be really performing at the moment because of whatever the better feed is I can find knows where the lambs are on it at the moment, but the steers are still ticking away. But looking at the Optiway, they're back at a kilo a day rather than at the peak they're up around that 2. 1, so they're still ticking away, but another six or eight weeks and they get on that oats, they'll get going again.

That's quite a beautiful segue into a bit of a segment on technology. So you are starting to use a little bit of technology and we had a bit of a look at it the other week at a bit of a producer day that we had out here. How are you finding the Optiway?

That's quite a beautiful segue into a bit of a segment on technology. So you are starting to use a little bit of technology and we had a bit of a look at it the other week at a bit of a producer day that we had out here. How are you finding the Optiway?

Look, when Marco bought it, I thought I'd sooner he bought $ 20,000 worth of gates than an Optiway, but it has been useful. It has for sure. You look at paddocks and you think they should do really well on there, like they'll do a good kilo and a half there and before we actually had to run them over the scales to see where they're at, whereas the Optiway might not be exactly right on what their body weight is, but because they've been on the scales, already know what their start body weight is, but it's very accurate on their daily gain. And a couple of times it was sort of saying they're at 2 or 2.1 kilos a day and give them six weeks ago they couldn't have been put them over the scales and they were bordering on too heavy to go to the feedlot. They were, yeah, it's really good on their daily gain.

Look, when Marco bought it, I thought I'd sooner he bought $ 20,000 worth of gates than an Optiway, but it has been useful. It has for sure. You look at paddocks and you think they should do really well on there, like they'll do a good kilo and a half there and before we actually had to run them over the scales to see where they're at, whereas the Optiway might not be exactly right on what their body weight is, but because they've been on the scales, already know what their start body weight is, but it's very accurate on their daily gain. And a couple of times it was sort of saying they're at 2 or 2.1 kilos a day and give them six weeks ago they couldn't have been put them over the scales and they were bordering on too heavy to go to the feedlot. They were, yeah, it's really good on their daily gain.

And you can watch that directly on your phone, get the live updates.

And you can watch that directly on your phone, get the live updates.

Yeah, get an email at eight minutes past four every morning until...

Yeah, get an email at eight minutes past four every morning until...

Oh, timely.

Oh, timely.

... just to let you know what they did yesterday.

... just to let you know what they did yesterday.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it has been pretty good at picking up, if you've got a steer that's something wrong with him too. It'll say that every day it gives you your minimum weight and your maximum weight and generally by the time I put them on the Optiway, they're between 400 and 450 kilos and should really be steaming along. And if your minimum weight steer's still sitting at 426 weeks in, you know there's something wrong with him and it's probably not as obvious till you get him into the yards, but if you go looking for that one steer that's 30 kilos lighter, you can generally find him. He's got foot abscess or a bit of wire or so... No, it has been anything but.

But it has been pretty good at picking up, if you've got a steer that's something wrong with him too. It'll say that every day it gives you your minimum weight and your maximum weight and generally by the time I put them on the Optiway, they're between 400 and 450 kilos and should really be steaming along. And if your minimum weight steer's still sitting at 426 weeks in, you know there's something wrong with him and it's probably not as obvious till you get him into the yards, but if you go looking for that one steer that's 30 kilos lighter, you can generally find him. He's got foot abscess or a bit of wire or so... No, it has been anything but.

It's a bit of help to know what to look for,

It's a bit of help to know what to look for,

But yeah.

But yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, just if it's consistently saying that's a steer there, that's that light you start, you're like, " I know there's not a steer there that's that light, but you go looking and sometimes it's just a steer that's got in."

Yeah. Well, just if it's consistently saying that's a steer there, that's that light you start, you're like, " I know there's not a steer there that's that light, but you go looking and sometimes it's just a steer that's got in."

And you're getting fair numbers across the Optiway in the mob?

And you're getting fair numbers across the Optiway in the mob?

Yeah, I think the averaging at the moment or when it was a bit dry, it was easy. They were really onto it because they were just sort of chasing that lick a bit, but generally you'd get 30 or 40% of the mob per day over it. So yeah, it's been pretty accurate, it has.

Yeah, I think the averaging at the moment or when it was a bit dry, it was easy. They were really onto it because they were just sort of chasing that lick a bit, but generally you'd get 30 or 40% of the mob per day over it. So yeah, it's been pretty accurate, it has.

Yeah. Start to get some numbers through. Is there any other technology that you are starting to use around the place? How are you going with electronic tags in shapes here?

Yeah. Start to get some numbers through. Is there any other technology that you are starting to use around the place? How are you going with electronic tags in shapes here?

Everything's got electronic tags, but I think that was more out of a we were going to have to than want to, but now that they're there, I probably auto draft and that sort of stuff. I think we'll come along the way, especially finishing lambs now make life a bit easier than weighing them individually and recent water dramas. I think we'll be putting a tank monitor or two in shortly too.

Everything's got electronic tags, but I think that was more out of a we were going to have to than want to, but now that they're there, I probably auto draft and that sort of stuff. I think we'll come along the way, especially finishing lambs now make life a bit easier than weighing them individually and recent water dramas. I think we'll be putting a tank monitor or two in shortly too.

It's keen to look at how you can use some of those technologies around your property to make I guess life a little bit easier with a few priorities going on.

It's keen to look at how you can use some of those technologies around your property to make I guess life a little bit easier with a few priorities going on.

Yeah, yeah. Technology's not my thing, but if it can save you a pretty costly mistake or water dramas, I think it'd be money well spent.

Yeah, yeah. Technology's not my thing, but if it can save you a pretty costly mistake or water dramas, I think it'd be money well spent.

We might pivot a little bit to one of the big challenges for you guys has been dealing with pest animals on your property. Did you want to talk a little bit about what that's been like managing it?

We might pivot a little bit to one of the big challenges for you guys has been dealing with pest animals on your property. Did you want to talk a little bit about what that's been like managing it?

Look late '18, '19 dogs were a real problem on the Ilford block and yeah, look off, there'll be people around that have seen me talk about the electric fence, but we ended up putting an electric exclusion fence around the block and it was put up purely to stop dogs. Dogs were what was in our face, local land service took us down to Tumut to look at a fence. I was a fencing contractor and I'd done nothing but pull electric fences down, not put them up. I wasn't building an electric fence. We had a look at one at a national park down around Tumbarumba and it was doing a sensational job. We looked at one joining a national park at Kiara and I didn't actually realize that it was a national park. It looked like the biggest mobile weathers in Australia had been in there, but it was all native pressure in the park and the block joining it had quite good feed. So I came home basically and ordered an electric fence. Once we had the fence up, it fixed our dog problem, but in hindsight, it was probably the fence would've paid for itself in two years just reducing the total grazing pressure. Once we got to the point where we could lock a paddock up and it was locked up, it was sort of really slapped you in the face how many animals we were feeding all the time. It's had its disadvantages too. We're sort of running really short of water. I suppose because of the ground cover we don't get the runoff and so it takes a really big rain to get water into dams now, so we probably have to sink a bore to counteract that. But all your moisture's staying on farm, well then it can only be a positive thing, water.

Look late '18, '19 dogs were a real problem on the Ilford block and yeah, look off, there'll be people around that have seen me talk about the electric fence, but we ended up putting an electric exclusion fence around the block and it was put up purely to stop dogs. Dogs were what was in our face, local land service took us down to Tumut to look at a fence. I was a fencing contractor and I'd done nothing but pull electric fences down, not put them up. I wasn't building an electric fence. We had a look at one at a national park down around Tumbarumba and it was doing a sensational job. We looked at one joining a national park at Kiara and I didn't actually realize that it was a national park. It looked like the biggest mobile weathers in Australia had been in there, but it was all native pressure in the park and the block joining it had quite good feed. So I came home basically and ordered an electric fence. Once we had the fence up, it fixed our dog problem, but in hindsight, it was probably the fence would've paid for itself in two years just reducing the total grazing pressure. Once we got to the point where we could lock a paddock up and it was locked up, it was sort of really slapped you in the face how many animals we were feeding all the time. It's had its disadvantages too. We're sort of running really short of water. I suppose because of the ground cover we don't get the runoff and so it takes a really big rain to get water into dams now, so we probably have to sink a bore to counteract that. But all your moisture's staying on farm, well then it can only be a positive thing, water.

It's producing more grass.

It's producing more grass.

Problems can be fixed. Yeah.

Problems can be fixed. Yeah.

Yeah. Is there much maintenance cost involved with the fence at all or is it just you put up and it's right to go?

Yeah. Is there much maintenance cost involved with the fence at all or is it just you put up and it's right to go?

Probably three half days a year to spray the fence. We have had a little bit of trouble with insulators breaking. Yeah, there's been a bit of buggerizing around changing them out, but I'll probably change half a dozen insulators every quarter. Yeah, no. Maintenance costs are pretty minimal compared to if we ran a big high fence or a really good netting fence, which to know that nothing was getting in, we'd have to ride that fence every week and make sure there was no holes in it. Yeah, the maintenance is pretty minimal with the electric. It tells me from the house if there's a problem with the fence and sometimes when it turns dry there'll be a problem with it four or five days in a row. You know there could be the pressure from the outside, there could be a problem with the fence, you get some thunderstorms, there might be a tree on it, but at least from the house that there's a problem with the fence, you don't have to go and find it. So it works pretty good.

Probably three half days a year to spray the fence. We have had a little bit of trouble with insulators breaking. Yeah, there's been a bit of buggerizing around changing them out, but I'll probably change half a dozen insulators every quarter. Yeah, no. Maintenance costs are pretty minimal compared to if we ran a big high fence or a really good netting fence, which to know that nothing was getting in, we'd have to ride that fence every week and make sure there was no holes in it. Yeah, the maintenance is pretty minimal with the electric. It tells me from the house if there's a problem with the fence and sometimes when it turns dry there'll be a problem with it four or five days in a row. You know there could be the pressure from the outside, there could be a problem with the fence, you get some thunderstorms, there might be a tree on it, but at least from the house that there's a problem with the fence, you don't have to go and find it. So it works pretty good.

What does the fence look like? Does it just look like a normal fence for people that haven't seen an electric sort of exclusion fence before?

What does the fence look like? Does it just look like a normal fence for people that haven't seen an electric sort of exclusion fence before?

Where we had an existing boundary fence, it's just an offset four wires down low. When I say where we had a boundary fence, sounds a bit rough, but a lot of up on the mountain there's a lot of cliff and we didn't need a boundary fence because the stock didn't go down the cliff, but of course the dogs came up it, so where there was no fence, it's just a seven- plane wire standard height fence and is working really well. I can't fault it.

Where we had an existing boundary fence, it's just an offset four wires down low. When I say where we had a boundary fence, sounds a bit rough, but a lot of up on the mountain there's a lot of cliff and we didn't need a boundary fence because the stock didn't go down the cliff, but of course the dogs came up it, so where there was no fence, it's just a seven- plane wire standard height fence and is working really well. I can't fault it.

Do you feel like that you're over that, I guess, challenge a little bit for the moment then it gives you a bit of head space to tackle a few other things on farm?

Do you feel like that you're over that, I guess, challenge a little bit for the moment then it gives you a bit of head space to tackle a few other things on farm?

Oh for sure. Yeah, we have very few pest animals at all and no dogs at all. It sort of changed the game for us as far as that goes.

Oh for sure. Yeah, we have very few pest animals at all and no dogs at all. It sort of changed the game for us as far as that goes.

So I think the Paul Gibb and Stubbsie in the Mudgee office have done a bit of work with you and they're usually across all that pest animal stuff.

So I think the Paul Gibb and Stubbsie in the Mudgee office have done a bit of work with you and they're usually across all that pest animal stuff.

It was probably the biggest wake- up was I got sent an aerial map recently to mark out our boundaries for a super plane and when I looked at the map around the scrub areas and up in the steep stuff, there's all this bare ground and I looked at the age of the map and it was a map from back in 2019 and when you look at a map now that bare ground isn't there and you're probably talking 10% of the place, maybe 15% of the place that's grassed back up.

It was probably the biggest wake- up was I got sent an aerial map recently to mark out our boundaries for a super plane and when I looked at the map around the scrub areas and up in the steep stuff, there's all this bare ground and I looked at the age of the map and it was a map from back in 2019 and when you look at a map now that bare ground isn't there and you're probably talking 10% of the place, maybe 15% of the place that's grassed back up.

So you can actually see that there's herbage mass there, there's green material now.

So you can actually see that there's herbage mass there, there's green material now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And all the scrub areas. We just thought it was never cleared because it was pretty ordinary dirt and it just doesn't grow grass. Whereas now, there's grass growing in the scrub. A lot of our water that used to come down off that mountain out of that scrub doesn't come, which is good because when the water doesn't come you don't have to stand your fences back up either.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And all the scrub areas. We just thought it was never cleared because it was pretty ordinary dirt and it just doesn't grow grass. Whereas now, there's grass growing in the scrub. A lot of our water that used to come down off that mountain out of that scrub doesn't come, which is good because when the water doesn't come you don't have to stand your fences back up either.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But no, it was a real eye-opener to see grass growing in those areas.

Yeah. But no, it was a real eye-opener to see grass growing in those areas.

It's a good visual aid for you.

It's a good visual aid for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Bit of a motivator. Yeah, I think you've got some country that probably was a little bit more marginal but mainly from the maybe grazing pressure point of view as well.

Yeah. Bit of a motivator. Yeah, I think you've got some country that probably was a little bit more marginal but mainly from the maybe grazing pressure point of view as well.

Yeah, some of the country at Ilford is hard, would be an understatement. Pretty unproductive. Grew really good sift and bush.

Yeah, some of the country at Ilford is hard, would be an understatement. Pretty unproductive. Grew really good sift and bush.

Low pHs?

Low pHs?

Yeah, low pHs,

Yeah, low pHs,

Cline aluminiums.

Cline aluminiums.

All the good things, but we put a fair bit of lime. When we first sort of start getting the paddock ready. A lot of lime, a lot of chook manure and a lot of super and just get a really good fallow on it and... Yeah, we found if we can get a good fallow on it and not be hurried to get it in, wait till your moisture's there, we can get some really good results as far as... nah, it's the sifton bush pretty much disappeared.

All the good things, but we put a fair bit of lime. When we first sort of start getting the paddock ready. A lot of lime, a lot of chook manure and a lot of super and just get a really good fallow on it and... Yeah, we found if we can get a good fallow on it and not be hurried to get it in, wait till your moisture's there, we can get some really good results as far as... nah, it's the sifton bush pretty much disappeared.

What's your program? Usually the oats for a couple of years?

What's your program? Usually the oats for a couple of years?

No, over here on this better block over here, it's generally oats one year a really good spray fallow and then pasture. At Ilford we sort of try and cheat a bit because it can be prone to wash bean sandy, so we'll get a really good fallow on it, get some really good moisture in it, Only put a light right oats, sort of 50 kilos of the hectare and jam our pasture in at the same time and sort of baby it a little bit. We still graze our oats fairly well, but sort of come end of October we'll shut it up and if the pasture persists, well then we've had a win. And if not, we direct drill the pasture back in the following year. But we've only had it fail once so we've only had to resell paddock the one time and that was just a really hard sort of a spring and the pasture just sort of shriveled up. It didn't get a chance to run up to sea.

No, over here on this better block over here, it's generally oats one year a really good spray fallow and then pasture. At Ilford we sort of try and cheat a bit because it can be prone to wash bean sandy, so we'll get a really good fallow on it, get some really good moisture in it, Only put a light right oats, sort of 50 kilos of the hectare and jam our pasture in at the same time and sort of baby it a little bit. We still graze our oats fairly well, but sort of come end of October we'll shut it up and if the pasture persists, well then we've had a win. And if not, we direct drill the pasture back in the following year. But we've only had it fail once so we've only had to resell paddock the one time and that was just a really hard sort of a spring and the pasture just sort of shriveled up. It didn't get a chance to run up to sea.

So what grass pieces were those again?

So what grass pieces were those again?

We were using a fair bit of fescue but we sort of steered away from the fescue. Yeah, you've always got grass when you've got fescue because nothing wants to eat it, but a lot of phalaris, cocksfoot. We probably could drop the phalaris out. The phalaris is only sort of growing in the gullies just but the cocksfoot persists really well. Chickereas persisting quite well. Arrowleaf clover and a lot of balancia clover if we think it at the time we throw a bit of vetch in too. And the vetch is surprising. It's persisting quite well as well, sort of in the better of the worst dirt over there.

We were using a fair bit of fescue but we sort of steered away from the fescue. Yeah, you've always got grass when you've got fescue because nothing wants to eat it, but a lot of phalaris, cocksfoot. We probably could drop the phalaris out. The phalaris is only sort of growing in the gullies just but the cocksfoot persists really well. Chickereas persisting quite well. Arrowleaf clover and a lot of balancia clover if we think it at the time we throw a bit of vetch in too. And the vetch is surprising. It's persisting quite well as well, sort of in the better of the worst dirt over there.

What sort of percentage legume are you aiming for?

What sort of percentage legume are you aiming for?

I didn't aim for a percentage. I did a bit of contracting around here and I saw what grew and what didn't and so I just put in what grows and we get a break now. Because it is a little bit dry, we'll get a really big clover year. Last year we had a massive clover year. It got a bit dangerous last year.

I didn't aim for a percentage. I did a bit of contracting around here and I saw what grew and what didn't and so I just put in what grows and we get a break now. Because it is a little bit dry, we'll get a really big clover year. Last year we had a massive clover year. It got a bit dangerous last year.

Just from an animal health perspective?

Just from an animal health perspective?

Yeah, yeah. We didn't manage to kill anything but they said if you weren't busting them, you weren't trying. Well, we were trying pretty hard. We got pretty close to busting some, but yeah, if you can... We just, I don't know, I suppose you'd end up with it about 50/ 50 but because of the climate, your clover will come in the autumn at Ilford, it'll sit there all winter, it won't do much and then take off in the spring. Over here it's a little bit different. It'll get down through the winter. So the clay really often doesn't bother us too much, but over here we've got to watch it if we get to get a good autumn. So the fescue went in because we had a split lambing, we used to lamb half autumn, half spring. We try to wean lambs at Christmastime you had no green feed and that was the idea with the fescue. And the fescue works as long as you've got the time to mulch it and keep it four inches high. But if it gets a foot high within a week, it's got a dead stalk in it and the lambs just aren't interested in it.

Yeah, yeah. We didn't manage to kill anything but they said if you weren't busting them, you weren't trying. Well, we were trying pretty hard. We got pretty close to busting some, but yeah, if you can... We just, I don't know, I suppose you'd end up with it about 50/ 50 but because of the climate, your clover will come in the autumn at Ilford, it'll sit there all winter, it won't do much and then take off in the spring. Over here it's a little bit different. It'll get down through the winter. So the clay really often doesn't bother us too much, but over here we've got to watch it if we get to get a good autumn. So the fescue went in because we had a split lambing, we used to lamb half autumn, half spring. We try to wean lambs at Christmastime you had no green feed and that was the idea with the fescue. And the fescue works as long as you've got the time to mulch it and keep it four inches high. But if it gets a foot high within a week, it's got a dead stalk in it and the lambs just aren't interested in it.

Digestibility too.

Digestibility too.

Yeah, we trialed one paddock there this year and made hay off it and we generally don't... Flog's the wrong word, but we generally don't stock paddocks very heavy, but we really give it to that paddock this year and every sprinkler rain we had that fescue came green again and I don't know if we fattened anything on it, but we kept a lot of stock alive on not much for a long time off that fescue this year, so it might have to be a management tool we change with the fescue I think. And the fescue's probably been a bit hard on our dirt. It seems very hungry and four years you'll see the fescue's very clumpy and a lot of bare ground between it and so yeah, we'll competing everything else, yeah.

Yeah, we trialed one paddock there this year and made hay off it and we generally don't... Flog's the wrong word, but we generally don't stock paddocks very heavy, but we really give it to that paddock this year and every sprinkler rain we had that fescue came green again and I don't know if we fattened anything on it, but we kept a lot of stock alive on not much for a long time off that fescue this year, so it might have to be a management tool we change with the fescue I think. And the fescue's probably been a bit hard on our dirt. It seems very hungry and four years you'll see the fescue's very clumpy and a lot of bare ground between it and so yeah, we'll competing everything else, yeah.

And potentially that grazing pressure as well is helping that out competition.

And potentially that grazing pressure as well is helping that out competition.

Yeah, yeah. Well that paddock that we made hay off this year, we'll get a bit of rain this weekend, I'll run a light charge around up on it, just upset the fescue a bit and I'll drill a bit of clover and that sort of stuff in and just see if we can fill the bare spots in and-

Yeah, yeah. Well that paddock that we made hay off this year, we'll get a bit of rain this weekend, I'll run a light charge around up on it, just upset the fescue a bit and I'll drill a bit of clover and that sort of stuff in and just see if we can fill the bare spots in and-

So what sort of time are you getting out of your pastures then?

So what sort of time are you getting out of your pastures then?

Well, some of these pastures here would be been there 20 years, but they're on this block here that we share farm there more phalaris clover dominant bit of cocksfoot. Some of the paddocks seem to be cocksfoot dominant, but yeah, it's more your traditional phalaris clover.

Well, some of these pastures here would be been there 20 years, but they're on this block here that we share farm there more phalaris clover dominant bit of cocksfoot. Some of the paddocks seem to be cocksfoot dominant, but yeah, it's more your traditional phalaris clover.

Got to be prairie grass through it as well.

Got to be prairie grass through it as well.

A little bit here. So the pasture we put in last year, we took the fescue out and swapped it back to prairie grass and yeah the prairie grass seems to more palatable than the fescue. So yeah, we've trawled a bit of prairie grass in the past and we're pretty happy with it. I'm not actually sure why we went away from it, but yeah, we have been pretty happy with the prairie grass in the past.

A little bit here. So the pasture we put in last year, we took the fescue out and swapped it back to prairie grass and yeah the prairie grass seems to more palatable than the fescue. So yeah, we've trawled a bit of prairie grass in the past and we're pretty happy with it. I'm not actually sure why we went away from it, but yeah, we have been pretty happy with the prairie grass in the past.

And then just regular single super application yearly or?

And then just regular single super application yearly or?

Yeah, every second year. Generally the block here that Marco owns, it gets it pretty regularly. Yeah, it'd nearly be yearly and last year you're probably hoping that it didn't go on there. The clover was knee- high and then he came along over to charge a super too just to really warm things up. But yeah, no it doesn't. Look, this country's all pretty light here. If you don't feed it doesn't grow and it's pretty evident you get up on that mountain, look across Ilford when things get hard and you can see where the fertiliser is and where the fertiliser isn't. And in the last four years, I suppose since the drought and then we had those real wet years, the sift and bush on that poorer country that isn't fertilized, it's just taken over. You can see that everywhere now, even from the highway.

Yeah, every second year. Generally the block here that Marco owns, it gets it pretty regularly. Yeah, it'd nearly be yearly and last year you're probably hoping that it didn't go on there. The clover was knee- high and then he came along over to charge a super too just to really warm things up. But yeah, no it doesn't. Look, this country's all pretty light here. If you don't feed it doesn't grow and it's pretty evident you get up on that mountain, look across Ilford when things get hard and you can see where the fertiliser is and where the fertiliser isn't. And in the last four years, I suppose since the drought and then we had those real wet years, the sift and bush on that poorer country that isn't fertilized, it's just taken over. You can see that everywhere now, even from the highway.

Yeah, it's definitely a regional problem.

Yeah, it's definitely a regional problem.

It is. Super sounds dear when you look at the bill when you buy it, but you break it down into a couple of kilos of beef per hectare to buy it, it's not that dear. You do your numbers, it's quite cheap compared to buying a new Land Cruiser.

It is. Super sounds dear when you look at the bill when you buy it, but you break it down into a couple of kilos of beef per hectare to buy it, it's not that dear. You do your numbers, it's quite cheap compared to buying a new Land Cruiser.

And you are a fan of Land Cruisers, so Yeah. Yeah. So we are in a shearing shed at the moment and it's creaking nicely as the sun shines through. So hopefully there is a bit of rain coming. But I guess what's your plan for the next five to 10 years? What are you guys looking at or what are the opportunities or challenges that you really want to sink your teeth into?

And you are a fan of Land Cruisers, so Yeah. Yeah. So we are in a shearing shed at the moment and it's creaking nicely as the sun shines through. So hopefully there is a bit of rain coming. But I guess what's your plan for the next five to 10 years? What are you guys looking at or what are the opportunities or challenges that you really want to sink your teeth into?

Oh, we'd like to consolidate rather than having three or four scattered blocks. Like everyone, we'd like just one big block. That'll be the plan. The problem will be deciding where to do it. We've got a few options up our sleeve, we just can't make up our mind yet where we want to do it. Yeah, obviously there's opportunity here for us. Sydney's probably getting a bit close, we've been looking around. That'd be the main thing is just get it consolidated into a block, cut the running round a bit down a bit and see where we go. The country we've got now, we've sort of got it as good as we can get it and you probably think you should sit on your hands and do things a bit easier and make money for a while, but I don't know. I seem to doing places up so I get a bit stale if I'm just sitting on the one. So yeah, we'll be looking around for our next opportunity as to what we want to do.

Oh, we'd like to consolidate rather than having three or four scattered blocks. Like everyone, we'd like just one big block. That'll be the plan. The problem will be deciding where to do it. We've got a few options up our sleeve, we just can't make up our mind yet where we want to do it. Yeah, obviously there's opportunity here for us. Sydney's probably getting a bit close, we've been looking around. That'd be the main thing is just get it consolidated into a block, cut the running round a bit down a bit and see where we go. The country we've got now, we've sort of got it as good as we can get it and you probably think you should sit on your hands and do things a bit easier and make money for a while, but I don't know. I seem to doing places up so I get a bit stale if I'm just sitting on the one. So yeah, we'll be looking around for our next opportunity as to what we want to do.

And the kids are getting older and having to consider all that in the mix.

And the kids are getting older and having to consider all that in the mix.

Yeah, no, it was easier with no kids. You could just go want to go here and go there. But yeah, it's a good area for the kids here, but I think it's agriculture is going to look very different in another 10 years time. So yeah, we're sort of definitely looking a bit further out.

Yeah, no, it was easier with no kids. You could just go want to go here and go there. But yeah, it's a good area for the kids here, but I think it's agriculture is going to look very different in another 10 years time. So yeah, we're sort of definitely looking a bit further out.

Natural conversationalist really. I've had a really good time. Thank you so much and I really appreciate your time and your openness about your business and your family and what you guys are doing and where you're heading. So yeah, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Natural conversationalist really. I've had a really good time. Thank you so much and I really appreciate your time and your openness about your business and your family and what you guys are doing and where you're heading. So yeah, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

No worries. Thank you.

No worries. Thank you.

This episode was produced as part of Central West Local Land Services adapt project, through funding from the Australian Government's National Land Care program. Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you by Central West Local Land Services. Local Land services delivers advice and support to Farmers, landholders, and the community across New South Wales. To learn more, you can find us online by searching for Central West Local Land Services. If you'd like more information about the topics we discussed today, as well as links to relevant articles, fact sheets, events, and other helpful resources, we've added those into the show notes for this episode. You can find them by tapping or swiping over the cover art in your podcast player now. Hey, and while you're there, please leave us a five- star review. It really helps other farmers find the show. I'm your host, Neroli Brennan, and I'll chat to you next time.

This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host, Neroli Brennan. Today we're bringing you the second part of our conversation with Isabele and Pete Roberts. In our last episode, Isabele and Pete shared their secrets to running a complex family operation across their three properties, including how they're meeting market specifications. In today's episode, we look at the importance of multi- species grazing crops at the Ridge Haven operation. Isabele and Pete share with us what they've been doing on farm with multi- species crops and the recent research they've been doing in conjunction with Department of Primary Industries and regional development. They also talk to us about the importance of matching feed requirements to their breeding ewes and marketable lambs. They also share the decision process of graze grain recovery or fodder conservation, Local Land Services Mixed Farming advisor Rohan Leach sat down with Isabel and Pete at their home in Cudal between loading trucks to bring you this great conversation.

This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host, Neroli Brennan. Today we're bringing you the second part of our conversation with Isabele and Pete Roberts. In our last episode, Isabele and Pete shared their secrets to running a complex family operation across their three properties, including how they're meeting market specifications. In today's episode, we look at the importance of multi- species grazing crops at the Ridge Haven operation. Isabele and Pete share with us what they've been doing on farm with multi- species crops and the recent research they've been doing in conjunction with Department of Primary Industries and regional development. They also talk to us about the importance of matching feed requirements to their breeding ewes and marketable lambs. They also share the decision process of graze grain recovery or fodder conservation, Local Land Services Mixed Farming advisor Rohan Leach sat down with Isabel and Pete at their home in Cudal between loading trucks to bring you this great conversation.

G'day listeners, we're back with Pete and Isabele Roberts for the second part of this interview. So guys, I now want to talk a bit about the work you've been doing with multi- species fodder crops. I know you mentioned a bit in the previous episode about how it's just such a juggle of management with your sheep business. How do you work in your grazing, your fodder crops?

G'day listeners, we're back with Pete and Isabele Roberts for the second part of this interview. So guys, I now want to talk a bit about the work you've been doing with multi- species fodder crops. I know you mentioned a bit in the previous episode about how it's just such a juggle of management with your sheep business. How do you work in your grazing, your fodder crops?

Because we plan so well from a livestock point of view, we pretty much know three to four months out, maybe even six months out, on what our carrier capacity and what our peak production periods are. We know what our paddocks and we know what our pastures can do and can perform at. The unknown is the season. So six months out, you're a brave man if you're going to forecast whether it's a decile five or a decile seven rainfall season or a decile one day rainfall season. So our best case scenario is to prepare for a decile five. If it turns out to be a decile eight rainfall season, we've got excess, if it's a decile two, we've got to fill a feed gap somewhere. So we can either fill a feed gap out of the silo with supplementary feed, which takes labour. We're okay with that. But our ideal is to fill it with crop. So that might be early oats for early autumn production. It could easily be an early winter wheat. It could be a late barley for production. Conversely, we will grow anything that will produce the quality and quantity that we need.

Because we plan so well from a livestock point of view, we pretty much know three to four months out, maybe even six months out, on what our carrier capacity and what our peak production periods are. We know what our paddocks and we know what our pastures can do and can perform at. The unknown is the season. So six months out, you're a brave man if you're going to forecast whether it's a decile five or a decile seven rainfall season or a decile one day rainfall season. So our best case scenario is to prepare for a decile five. If it turns out to be a decile eight rainfall season, we've got excess, if it's a decile two, we've got to fill a feed gap somewhere. So we can either fill a feed gap out of the silo with supplementary feed, which takes labour. We're okay with that. But our ideal is to fill it with crop. So that might be early oats for early autumn production. It could easily be an early winter wheat. It could be a late barley for production. Conversely, we will grow anything that will produce the quality and quantity that we need.

Getting back to that planning that we talked with Isabele about it in the previous episode, it's such a powerful thing to know how many fetuses you've got on board. You said you know the capacity of your pastures. It's a pretty simple equation. While it might seem daunting, it's a fairly simple equation to say, "We're going to need this many megajoules of metabolisable energy in these months." And it's calculations almost.

Getting back to that planning that we talked with Isabele about it in the previous episode, it's such a powerful thing to know how many fetuses you've got on board. You said you know the capacity of your pastures. It's a pretty simple equation. While it might seem daunting, it's a fairly simple equation to say, "We're going to need this many megajoules of metabolisable energy in these months." And it's calculations almost.

Yeah, it is just calculations. And I mean, I have the luxury that I was an agronomist by trade, so there's a lot of background information that sits inside my head that is really simple for me to process. I know where I'm going to get my growth from, because it is all about growth. It's not necessarily about quantity of feed. I've got an intake that I've got to match. And there is interesting discussions come July when I've got aspirations to pull the header out of the shed, and we sit there, and we do the sums and the outcome is that paddocks get grossed out.

Yeah, it is just calculations. And I mean, I have the luxury that I was an agronomist by trade, so there's a lot of background information that sits inside my head that is really simple for me to process. I know where I'm going to get my growth from, because it is all about growth. It's not necessarily about quantity of feed. I've got an intake that I've got to match. And there is interesting discussions come July when I've got aspirations to pull the header out of the shed, and we sit there, and we do the sums and the outcome is that paddocks get grossed out.

So you mentioned July as a crucial date for you then, and you also, we've talked about you're starting on the 1st of March. Can you talk us through your program?

So you mentioned July as a crucial date for you then, and you also, we've talked about you're starting on the 1st of March. Can you talk us through your program?

We started in the eastern side of our properties 1st of March with early oats that run into European winter wheats and run into our mixed species broadleaf crops, probably by about the middle of March. And they're all scheduled for opening dates at certain times. Agronomically, we have to have a broadleaf in our system. So we've got some ryegrass that chemically is challenging, so we need a broadleaf in our system. And we've tried grazing canolas. Lots of blokes grow grazing canolas in our district and do really well out of them. It's not a system that works well for us. So we choose to do a mixed system because we get our weight gains better. So that's our eastern block. We then go to Forbes and sow early oats, and then more of a main season, winter wheat in Illabo is usually in by the last week of March. Illabo and Forbes is our main cereal with some early oats and then we're back to Cudal. We're usually trying to sow pastures around Anzac Day. Our ryegrasses all go in the start of April. So we're not scared of sowing ryegrass. We spend our life controlling annual ryegrass in the cropping phase to turn around, usually post a veg crop to sow an Italian or a three- year hybrid ryegrass.

We started in the eastern side of our properties 1st of March with early oats that run into European winter wheats and run into our mixed species broadleaf crops, probably by about the middle of March. And they're all scheduled for opening dates at certain times. Agronomically, we have to have a broadleaf in our system. So we've got some ryegrass that chemically is challenging, so we need a broadleaf in our system. And we've tried grazing canolas. Lots of blokes grow grazing canolas in our district and do really well out of them. It's not a system that works well for us. So we choose to do a mixed system because we get our weight gains better. So that's our eastern block. We then go to Forbes and sow early oats, and then more of a main season, winter wheat in Illabo is usually in by the last week of March. Illabo and Forbes is our main cereal with some early oats and then we're back to Cudal. We're usually trying to sow pastures around Anzac Day. Our ryegrasses all go in the start of April. So we're not scared of sowing ryegrass. We spend our life controlling annual ryegrass in the cropping phase to turn around, usually post a veg crop to sow an Italian or a three- year hybrid ryegrass.

Can you just speak to people that might be concerned about that and why it shouldn't worry you, why people might be concerned about if they've got resistant ryegrass? Why sowing a tetraploid or a diploid high performance ryegrass maybe isn't an issue?

Can you just speak to people that might be concerned about that and why it shouldn't worry you, why people might be concerned about if they've got resistant ryegrass? Why sowing a tetraploid or a diploid high performance ryegrass maybe isn't an issue?

It's not an issue because nothing puts weight on like ryegrass. If you read any literature out of the dairy system, ryegrass grows milk, and the weight gains off ryegrass is huge. We sit mainly in a hybrid system where we get one to probably no more like three to five years out of ryegrass, and it's the autumn feed production. Our early autumn lambs just turn up and sit straight onto ryegrass. And the production is huge.

It's not an issue because nothing puts weight on like ryegrass. If you read any literature out of the dairy system, ryegrass grows milk, and the weight gains off ryegrass is huge. We sit mainly in a hybrid system where we get one to probably no more like three to five years out of ryegrass, and it's the autumn feed production. Our early autumn lambs just turn up and sit straight onto ryegrass. And the production is huge.

So those early March lambs that I spoke about last time, they've got pasture paddocks for their lambing paddocks. The rotation plan is that when we mark them, because we mark down the paddock, we take the mobile yards down the paddock, and then small mobs will come in, get marked, and then they'll get moved into the ryegrass from that point forward. And the plan, if the season goes well, is that they'll actually be able to sit on ryegrass until weaning. And that's pretty well how we can guarantee that we're going to hit our weight gain targets and our saleable date targets is by providing them with a feed that can match their genetic capacity.

So those early March lambs that I spoke about last time, they've got pasture paddocks for their lambing paddocks. The rotation plan is that when we mark them, because we mark down the paddock, we take the mobile yards down the paddock, and then small mobs will come in, get marked, and then they'll get moved into the ryegrass from that point forward. And the plan, if the season goes well, is that they'll actually be able to sit on ryegrass until weaning. And that's pretty well how we can guarantee that we're going to hit our weight gain targets and our saleable date targets is by providing them with a feed that can match their genetic capacity.

It's rocket fuel, ryegrass. It's generally above 80% digestibility for large parts of the season.

It's rocket fuel, ryegrass. It's generally above 80% digestibility for large parts of the season.

400 grams a day is easy money on ryegrass. From a point of view of the annual ryegrass, because of the grazing system and the competitiveness of your annuals or your hybrid ryegrasses, the wimmer of ryegrass never gets any legs. Barley grass can be a concern because sheep will preferentially graze the ryegrass over the barley grass, so you can have barley grass issues, but generally we're pretty clean on barley grass when we go into these rotations.

400 grams a day is easy money on ryegrass. From a point of view of the annual ryegrass, because of the grazing system and the competitiveness of your annuals or your hybrid ryegrasses, the wimmer of ryegrass never gets any legs. Barley grass can be a concern because sheep will preferentially graze the ryegrass over the barley grass, so you can have barley grass issues, but generally we're pretty clean on barley grass when we go into these rotations.

I would also think, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that maybe you guys are pretty lucky in terms of growing perennial ryegrass at this sort of elevation and heat, in the fact that you've just got some of probably the best soils in Australia, able to retain a bit more moisture than your average.

I would also think, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that maybe you guys are pretty lucky in terms of growing perennial ryegrass at this sort of elevation and heat, in the fact that you've just got some of probably the best soils in Australia, able to retain a bit more moisture than your average.

Yeah. So we're not growing perennial for perennial. So the hybrid ryegrass we go is a variety called Barberia, and it's an anomaly in the system. There's nothing quite like it. But it has a really good summer dormancy out of it. So when it gets hot and dry, it just shuts up shop. So our worst season, we've got two years out of it, and our best seasons we've got probably six years out of it. So we budget on two, if we get any more than two, we're loving life.

Yeah. So we're not growing perennial for perennial. So the hybrid ryegrass we go is a variety called Barberia, and it's an anomaly in the system. There's nothing quite like it. But it has a really good summer dormancy out of it. So when it gets hot and dry, it just shuts up shop. So our worst season, we've got two years out of it, and our best seasons we've got probably six years out of it. So we budget on two, if we get any more than two, we're loving life.

So what stacks up better for you, fodder crops, dual purpose crops, or grain only?

So what stacks up better for you, fodder crops, dual purpose crops, or grain only?

Everything has its place. So if I go to my Forbes properties, we grow a lot of lupins and we grow a lot of barley or straight oats and that is for grain production. Lupins and oats is the thing that we like to bring out of the silos. The barleys and wheat all gets delivered, but Forbes suits that system. In Forbes, with the June- July lambing, grazing crop can be really difficult because we want to shut up the 10th of July. So we're lambing off crop and then moving onto crop. So we don't actually give our animals a lot of time on that grazing crop. So the bias out there is that our wheat will get harvested, but our rotation crop out there is mixed species, so it is a brassica of some type, so a winter fruit or a Greenland, a common veg and a tillage radish and we sow that, out there, it probably goes in the 15th of April, and we don't eat it until July because when we come off crop, all those ewes and lambs will go onto a bulk of feed that's had ryegrass control. So from the fact it gets curb, it gets group As, and we get really good ryegrass control in those paddocks because that's what we're looking for out of that rotation. But we get huge growth rates in the spring off those species. And it's not growth rate in the paddock, it's growth rate in the lamb, so that's meat per hectare or kilo per hectare of meat.

Everything has its place. So if I go to my Forbes properties, we grow a lot of lupins and we grow a lot of barley or straight oats and that is for grain production. Lupins and oats is the thing that we like to bring out of the silos. The barleys and wheat all gets delivered, but Forbes suits that system. In Forbes, with the June- July lambing, grazing crop can be really difficult because we want to shut up the 10th of July. So we're lambing off crop and then moving onto crop. So we don't actually give our animals a lot of time on that grazing crop. So the bias out there is that our wheat will get harvested, but our rotation crop out there is mixed species, so it is a brassica of some type, so a winter fruit or a Greenland, a common veg and a tillage radish and we sow that, out there, it probably goes in the 15th of April, and we don't eat it until July because when we come off crop, all those ewes and lambs will go onto a bulk of feed that's had ryegrass control. So from the fact it gets curb, it gets group As, and we get really good ryegrass control in those paddocks because that's what we're looking for out of that rotation. But we get huge growth rates in the spring off those species. And it's not growth rate in the paddock, it's growth rate in the lamb, so that's meat per hectare or kilo per hectare of meat.

If I talk back to Cudal, pretty well everything here has to have the option of being able to get grazed, but also a portion of what we plant has to have the option of being able to go to harvest. And that's really just adding flexibility for a seasonal condition change. So for instance, when we were looking at grazing planning and cropping planning last week, there were a couple of paddocks that had been put aside effectively just to go through to harvest. But we've changed the variety that we've planted now such that they actually can just be a grazed out paddock if needs be because we just think, " Well, if we've got loads of lambs in the springtime or if the autumn cuts out, because there's never a guarantee of a good autumn, and we've got carryover lambs, we want to be able to have the option of having a paddock to graze out. But if the season goes with us, then it can go through to harvest." So that dual purpose component is actually critically important for us. On the same theme, having fodder only is also really important because you've probably figured out, we run, livestock are our primary focus and so there's always going to be mouths that need to get fed, and if you've got fodder crops that effectively can hold stock for longer, then we can manage our pasture better. And that's actually one of the real values of actually having fodder crops is actually managing your pasture so that it can lay dormant and have rest and recovery when it needs to, and you're not back onto it too quick in the springtime or you're not on it too fast in the autumn. It basically allows your pasture to be as productive as possible as well. So dual purpose and fodder, certainly at Cudal, as Pete said, the Forbes property, a fair chunk of that is just straight grain.

If I talk back to Cudal, pretty well everything here has to have the option of being able to get grazed, but also a portion of what we plant has to have the option of being able to go to harvest. And that's really just adding flexibility for a seasonal condition change. So for instance, when we were looking at grazing planning and cropping planning last week, there were a couple of paddocks that had been put aside effectively just to go through to harvest. But we've changed the variety that we've planted now such that they actually can just be a grazed out paddock if needs be because we just think, " Well, if we've got loads of lambs in the springtime or if the autumn cuts out, because there's never a guarantee of a good autumn, and we've got carryover lambs, we want to be able to have the option of having a paddock to graze out. But if the season goes with us, then it can go through to harvest." So that dual purpose component is actually critically important for us. On the same theme, having fodder only is also really important because you've probably figured out, we run, livestock are our primary focus and so there's always going to be mouths that need to get fed, and if you've got fodder crops that effectively can hold stock for longer, then we can manage our pasture better. And that's actually one of the real values of actually having fodder crops is actually managing your pasture so that it can lay dormant and have rest and recovery when it needs to, and you're not back onto it too quick in the springtime or you're not on it too fast in the autumn. It basically allows your pasture to be as productive as possible as well. So dual purpose and fodder, certainly at Cudal, as Pete said, the Forbes property, a fair chunk of that is just straight grain.

I think you answered it well in that it basically just, it depends.

I think you answered it well in that it basically just, it depends.

Always. It's such a great answer. It depends.

Always. It's such a great answer. It depends.

And it depends on what the goal is, of what you need that paddock to be doing.

And it depends on what the goal is, of what you need that paddock to be doing.

So do some summer forage stuff and that's primarily to save on Roundup. I may as well be growing something that we can eat rather than spraying something out. Our system is a cropping system in the fact that if there's weeds there, we spray them, because we want to maintain moisture and we want to maintain nitrogen in our fallows. So we look like a cropping system, especially in our Western country. We look like a cropping system this time of year, but we do sow summer forages, so millet, sorghum, sunflower, soybean, will all get mixed in certain paddocks. And this year we haven't actually utilised them ourselves. We've actually had adjustment cows on that utilise them. And they've just brought us money as a adjustment stock every week because we know our paddocks, we know what we've got to control. After the first graze everything gets a two to four diester for burr control. We're not rewriting the world, we're not trying to be the answer to everyone, but there's opportunities to be had. So we've had excess moisture over the summer, and we've been able to grow more forage. If the season was dry, we would've utilised more of it, but the fact is we've cash cropped it in essence with adjustment animals.

So do some summer forage stuff and that's primarily to save on Roundup. I may as well be growing something that we can eat rather than spraying something out. Our system is a cropping system in the fact that if there's weeds there, we spray them, because we want to maintain moisture and we want to maintain nitrogen in our fallows. So we look like a cropping system, especially in our Western country. We look like a cropping system this time of year, but we do sow summer forages, so millet, sorghum, sunflower, soybean, will all get mixed in certain paddocks. And this year we haven't actually utilised them ourselves. We've actually had adjustment cows on that utilise them. And they've just brought us money as a adjustment stock every week because we know our paddocks, we know what we've got to control. After the first graze everything gets a two to four diester for burr control. We're not rewriting the world, we're not trying to be the answer to everyone, but there's opportunities to be had. So we've had excess moisture over the summer, and we've been able to grow more forage. If the season was dry, we would've utilised more of it, but the fact is we've cash cropped it in essence with adjustment animals.

So that is an interesting strategy. And how does it stack up economically? Because yes, you're not spending the money on fallow sprays on that paddock, and you are getting the income of grazing, but those seeds are all quite expensive, and I assume fertiliser and other herbicides that you're applying maybe again, increase your costs, there. So yeah, how does that stack up?

So that is an interesting strategy. And how does it stack up economically? Because yes, you're not spending the money on fallow sprays on that paddock, and you are getting the income of grazing, but those seeds are all quite expensive, and I assume fertiliser and other herbicides that you're applying maybe again, increase your costs, there. So yeah, how does that stack up?

Yeah. So it all comes with cost. So we know our costs of input and we're looking to capture opportunity. We're looking to generate income. And the worst decision you can do is to think and go, " I should have sown something." So we run a really short fallow in the East. Its reality is we're harvesting in December up until Christmas, and then we're trying to sow 1st of March. Really, we could be in the ground now.

Yeah. So it all comes with cost. So we know our costs of input and we're looking to capture opportunity. We're looking to generate income. And the worst decision you can do is to think and go, " I should have sown something." So we run a really short fallow in the East. Its reality is we're harvesting in December up until Christmas, and then we're trying to sow 1st of March. Really, we could be in the ground now.

And now being the middle of Feb, after, everyone will remember it, the very cool change in late Feb.

And now being the middle of Feb, after, everyone will remember it, the very cool change in late Feb.

There's two sides. There's probably a quantifiable dry matter production and carry capacity output, but then there's also a soil biological output in the fact that we're growing something through the summer months. Yes, we're utilising moisture and nitrogen, but we're growing a mixed species that will get some nitrogen production, but we're also growing more dry matter. More dry matter means more organic matter in our soil type. That one's really hard. It's probably a bit touchy- feely for me sometimes, but it's a hard one to quantify. So those paddocks will get sprayed at the start of March and we'll get jammed straight into wheat.

There's two sides. There's probably a quantifiable dry matter production and carry capacity output, but then there's also a soil biological output in the fact that we're growing something through the summer months. Yes, we're utilising moisture and nitrogen, but we're growing a mixed species that will get some nitrogen production, but we're also growing more dry matter. More dry matter means more organic matter in our soil type. That one's really hard. It's probably a bit touchy- feely for me sometimes, but it's a hard one to quantify. So those paddocks will get sprayed at the start of March and we'll get jammed straight into wheat.

Straight away. It's not going to be one of your later paddocks that you'll sow?

Straight away. It's not going to be one of your later paddocks that you'll sow?

No, they'll go straight in. In our experience, they don't seem to get any adverse conditions here in the East.

No, they'll go straight in. In our experience, they don't seem to get any adverse conditions here in the East.

I guess the other side of it is if those paddocks were to remain fallow over the summer time, because we do get November storms and intermittent summer storms, it will grow something. We're pretty good at growing Bathurst burrs here, which we try and control very, very specifically, and alongside those prickly things that grow, that you don't really want to grow, there's also a lot of summer grasses that come through that have very poor nutritional quality, so there's no real grazing. We are not missing out on grazing opportunity. We'd literally be having to spray it more than once anyway, every time it rained. So really, putting something in that grows, that can feed stock and also suppress that weed burden at the same time, the equation works at the other end.

I guess the other side of it is if those paddocks were to remain fallow over the summer time, because we do get November storms and intermittent summer storms, it will grow something. We're pretty good at growing Bathurst burrs here, which we try and control very, very specifically, and alongside those prickly things that grow, that you don't really want to grow, there's also a lot of summer grasses that come through that have very poor nutritional quality, so there's no real grazing. We are not missing out on grazing opportunity. We'd literally be having to spray it more than once anyway, every time it rained. So really, putting something in that grows, that can feed stock and also suppress that weed burden at the same time, the equation works at the other end.

So can you tell me a bit about the multi- species research project that you've been running in conjunction with New South Wales DPI?

So can you tell me a bit about the multi- species research project that you've been running in conjunction with New South Wales DPI?

Yeah, so last two years we've been running a research project. I think the MLA is in it as well. Yeah, so DPI trial, it started off as a concept of we were a sister site to Wagga, growing a serial base and then a serial base with some alternates in the mix. So 2023, we've got a lovely paddock at 23 hectare paddock, which is split probably into five hectare blocks. So four individual paddocks inside one paddock. And so we did a triticale base and then we did a triticale, veg, tillage radish, and brassica. So we'd been playing with mixed species. We would say our animals were happier and healthier on mixed species than on straights, but there's no science behind it. So we were really happy to jump on this project and help facilitate a site in the Central West.

Yeah, so last two years we've been running a research project. I think the MLA is in it as well. Yeah, so DPI trial, it started off as a concept of we were a sister site to Wagga, growing a serial base and then a serial base with some alternates in the mix. So 2023, we've got a lovely paddock at 23 hectare paddock, which is split probably into five hectare blocks. So four individual paddocks inside one paddock. And so we did a triticale base and then we did a triticale, veg, tillage radish, and brassica. So we'd been playing with mixed species. We would say our animals were happier and healthier on mixed species than on straights, but there's no science behind it. So we were really happy to jump on this project and help facilitate a site in the Central West.

So what had you been doing previously before this project in your own multi- species crops?

So what had you been doing previously before this project in your own multi- species crops?

Yeah, we've wheat and 970 canola for a few years with the idea that we're sowing in the 1st of March or last week of February. We don't know what the season's going to give us. So let's double dip. So we have, there's some grazing issues with grazing straight brassica, but then there's some performance advantages with grazing brassica. So we're using our wheat as a, in essence to buffer the high nitrates that you can get out of brassica, and then choosing in July which one we're going to carry through. So some years we carried the wheat through, depending whether we had broadleaf issues, and some years we carried the canola through, depending we had grass issues. So it was a kind of a 50-50 punt. We fell out of love with growing canola because it's a high risk crop for us, it's a high input. We then went to growing veg. So we really started to fall in love with veg as our rotation crop here in the East. And we grew canola and veg for a few years, which worked really well, really good growth rates, limited grazing days because of the canola, and an absolute pain in the arse to harvest. But 1. 1 tonne worth of veg and 800, 900 kilos of canola, it's not a bad economic return if you're willing to put up with it. With all our play we're settled on, we like a brassica mixed species because it gives us grass control. It's a brassica, so a Winifred or whatever's the flavor, tillage radish, and veg. And that really works well for us.

Yeah, we've wheat and 970 canola for a few years with the idea that we're sowing in the 1st of March or last week of February. We don't know what the season's going to give us. So let's double dip. So we have, there's some grazing issues with grazing straight brassica, but then there's some performance advantages with grazing brassica. So we're using our wheat as a, in essence to buffer the high nitrates that you can get out of brassica, and then choosing in July which one we're going to carry through. So some years we carried the wheat through, depending whether we had broadleaf issues, and some years we carried the canola through, depending we had grass issues. So it was a kind of a 50-50 punt. We fell out of love with growing canola because it's a high risk crop for us, it's a high input. We then went to growing veg. So we really started to fall in love with veg as our rotation crop here in the East. And we grew canola and veg for a few years, which worked really well, really good growth rates, limited grazing days because of the canola, and an absolute pain in the arse to harvest. But 1. 1 tonne worth of veg and 800, 900 kilos of canola, it's not a bad economic return if you're willing to put up with it. With all our play we're settled on, we like a brassica mixed species because it gives us grass control. It's a brassica, so a Winifred or whatever's the flavor, tillage radish, and veg. And that really works well for us.

And so what has the trials been telling you?

And so what has the trials been telling you?

So the trials would say, " Single species verse mixed species." Singles, you can grow more meat per hectare off a mixed species throughout a cold winter and into spring than you can off a single species. So you get a higher carrying capacity on your mixed species. Growth rates can be the inverse, so you can grow faster.

So the trials would say, " Single species verse mixed species." Singles, you can grow more meat per hectare off a mixed species throughout a cold winter and into spring than you can off a single species. So you get a higher carrying capacity on your mixed species. Growth rates can be the inverse, so you can grow faster.

So what we found, and if I speak to the '24 trial because obviously different species, different years.

So what we found, and if I speak to the '24 trial because obviously different species, different years.

So 2023 was a grass- based system, '24 was a broadleaf- based system, so it was straight peloton at 7. 2 kilos verse Peloton at 3.6 kilos, oats and veg. So we were looking for grass control. So even though we're sowing oats, the program was that the oats would get sprayed out at the opportune moment for ryegrass control.

So 2023 was a grass- based system, '24 was a broadleaf- based system, so it was straight peloton at 7. 2 kilos verse Peloton at 3.6 kilos, oats and veg. So we were looking for grass control. So even though we're sowing oats, the program was that the oats would get sprayed out at the opportune moment for ryegrass control.

We've got the trial plan from Pete and Isabel. Tell us the results now.

We've got the trial plan from Pete and Isabel. Tell us the results now.

And I think, if you listen to this and think, " Oh, there's two heads in this space, this sounds complicated." It kind of can be, but I think when you pull out some really clear points of view, it actually works really well. So growth rates, what we found is that on a per day basis, the single species, you actually get better growth rates out of.

And I think, if you listen to this and think, " Oh, there's two heads in this space, this sounds complicated." It kind of can be, but I think when you pull out some really clear points of view, it actually works really well. So growth rates, what we found is that on a per day basis, the single species, you actually get better growth rates out of.

And that's growth rates for your animals?

And that's growth rates for your animals?

Yeah, sheep yards, not silos. So growth rates grams per day for lamb on the single species, both in the '23 and the '24 trial were better, but carrying capacity across the whole trial timing, you could carry a lot more DSEs on a multi- species paddock in that time period than you would on a single species. And part of that we found, was because managing the different recovery period after grazing, sorry, was less of a challenge when you've got more than one species, but at the same time more of a challenge because you had to graze according to what you had in the paddock. So we could carry more stock, more days, more DSE days that we'd get.

Yeah, sheep yards, not silos. So growth rates grams per day for lamb on the single species, both in the '23 and the '24 trial were better, but carrying capacity across the whole trial timing, you could carry a lot more DSEs on a multi- species paddock in that time period than you would on a single species. And part of that we found, was because managing the different recovery period after grazing, sorry, was less of a challenge when you've got more than one species, but at the same time more of a challenge because you had to graze according to what you had in the paddock. So we could carry more stock, more days, more DSE days that we'd get.

So finding another way to put that, how many sheep, lambs, whatever, did you turn off the multi- species compared to the straight?

So finding another way to put that, how many sheep, lambs, whatever, did you turn off the multi- species compared to the straight?

Well I probably should give you a kilos per hectare and a per DSE or per day grazed is probably where we need to sit. If we look at the multi- species, we were able to stock it at 15.3 DSE per hectare for the three- month period. So we're looking from May 15th to August 15th, that's 24. That wasn't continuous, that's right. But rotation grazing is never going to be continuous, but you've got to give it all the days from the first date to the last date to see how you actually were able to stock it over that period. That was a single species. And the multi- species was at 14. 8, so we had very similar stocking rates on that. However, when we look at how many lambs we were able to turn off, because you have to get to a marketable weight as well, it's not just about how many kilos you turned off, but they all actually have to achieve that, too. We had a bigger percentage of the lambs that were able to go off the multi- species than the single species. And if we want to throw another number in there that complicates it even more, when we look at growth rates per day, we actually had a slightly higher growth rate on the single species than the multi- species. But for this year we had significant issues with actually maintaining our projected rotation. So in terms of the days on, days off the multi- species, we were totally fine. We could have stocked that the way that we'd planned, which in loose terms was 21 days on, 21 days off. When we tried to do that with our single species crop this year, we had about 10 or 11 days on before our kilos per hectare was below 1, 200, which is what our load level we wanted it to be, and we had to wait about 30 days before we could get back on. And so we had significant rotation planning issues with our single species that we'd never had with the multi- species, simply because inside the multi- species paddock we had some that were growing at a much more rapid rate through winter and others that were not quite as fast, but the quantity of feed was still there and available. So I guess the point to that is that if you're running a single species crop, you want to choose the right one for the timing and if you're running a multi- species crop, you actually have to graze it according to what you've got in the paddock as well. So it's not complicated, but you do need to know what you're working with.

Well I probably should give you a kilos per hectare and a per DSE or per day grazed is probably where we need to sit. If we look at the multi- species, we were able to stock it at 15.3 DSE per hectare for the three- month period. So we're looking from May 15th to August 15th, that's 24. That wasn't continuous, that's right. But rotation grazing is never going to be continuous, but you've got to give it all the days from the first date to the last date to see how you actually were able to stock it over that period. That was a single species. And the multi- species was at 14. 8, so we had very similar stocking rates on that. However, when we look at how many lambs we were able to turn off, because you have to get to a marketable weight as well, it's not just about how many kilos you turned off, but they all actually have to achieve that, too. We had a bigger percentage of the lambs that were able to go off the multi- species than the single species. And if we want to throw another number in there that complicates it even more, when we look at growth rates per day, we actually had a slightly higher growth rate on the single species than the multi- species. But for this year we had significant issues with actually maintaining our projected rotation. So in terms of the days on, days off the multi- species, we were totally fine. We could have stocked that the way that we'd planned, which in loose terms was 21 days on, 21 days off. When we tried to do that with our single species crop this year, we had about 10 or 11 days on before our kilos per hectare was below 1, 200, which is what our load level we wanted it to be, and we had to wait about 30 days before we could get back on. And so we had significant rotation planning issues with our single species that we'd never had with the multi- species, simply because inside the multi- species paddock we had some that were growing at a much more rapid rate through winter and others that were not quite as fast, but the quantity of feed was still there and available. So I guess the point to that is that if you're running a single species crop, you want to choose the right one for the timing and if you're running a multi- species crop, you actually have to graze it according to what you've got in the paddock as well. So it's not complicated, but you do need to know what you're working with.

Those are some good key messages. I guess the multi- species, you've got a diverse array of plants that are all got different plant structures and growing at different times of years, so it can provide you with different dry matter and different grazing value throughout the year. Is that the point?

Those are some good key messages. I guess the multi- species, you've got a diverse array of plants that are all got different plant structures and growing at different times of years, so it can provide you with different dry matter and different grazing value throughout the year. Is that the point?

Yeah, and you watch how the animals graze. So in our standard mix of brassica, tillage, radish and veg, so the veg we grow is a very quick grower. It gets up and going. The brassica we grow is probably the last to be right to graze, at 16 weeks. The tillage radish, it's a funny beast, it grows a heap of foliage. The first graze, they eat the foliage, they don't touch the bulb, but the moment they go back in on the second rotation, all they do is chase bulb. They're chasing carbohydrate and sugar out of the bulb. And they pull it out of the ground. And really, by July there is no tillage radish left. So it's interesting to see how sheep graze that system. I mean, there's always grass in the system. In a straight broadleaf system there is always grass, there's stuff which is resistant to whatever we've put on. There's always the scapes, and that is the buffer, the sheep will go and eat, and very little of it ever makes seed.

Yeah, and you watch how the animals graze. So in our standard mix of brassica, tillage, radish and veg, so the veg we grow is a very quick grower. It gets up and going. The brassica we grow is probably the last to be right to graze, at 16 weeks. The tillage radish, it's a funny beast, it grows a heap of foliage. The first graze, they eat the foliage, they don't touch the bulb, but the moment they go back in on the second rotation, all they do is chase bulb. They're chasing carbohydrate and sugar out of the bulb. And they pull it out of the ground. And really, by July there is no tillage radish left. So it's interesting to see how sheep graze that system. I mean, there's always grass in the system. In a straight broadleaf system there is always grass, there's stuff which is resistant to whatever we've put on. There's always the scapes, and that is the buffer, the sheep will go and eat, and very little of it ever makes seed.

It is, it should be a strategy if people are concerned about herbicide resistance in their grasses, yeah, just plant a broadleaf grazing crop and you're going to quickly, with sheep in particular, you're going to graze that resistant ryegrass out.

It is, it should be a strategy if people are concerned about herbicide resistance in their grasses, yeah, just plant a broadleaf grazing crop and you're going to quickly, with sheep in particular, you're going to graze that resistant ryegrass out.

Can I actually say that's actually one of the most beneficial things that you get without realizing that you're actually doing a really great job because particularly in a brassica situation where they love grass, they just want something extra eat. And that's probably why when we very right back at the beginning did that wheat- brassica mix and grazed on it, our stock did incredibly well because they either had brassica which was rocket fuel, or wheat because they wanted something a little bit different in their guts. So that whole additional beneficial thing is actually really, really, really important from a livestock health point of view.

Can I actually say that's actually one of the most beneficial things that you get without realizing that you're actually doing a really great job because particularly in a brassica situation where they love grass, they just want something extra eat. And that's probably why when we very right back at the beginning did that wheat- brassica mix and grazed on it, our stock did incredibly well because they either had brassica which was rocket fuel, or wheat because they wanted something a little bit different in their guts. So that whole additional beneficial thing is actually really, really, really important from a livestock health point of view.

Something linking back to the previous episode where we're talking about eating quality, any differences in the multi- species versus single species in terms of eating quality?

Something linking back to the previous episode where we're talking about eating quality, any differences in the multi- species versus single species in terms of eating quality?

Yeah. If you go '23, '24 triticale verse mix, the mix, the eating quality or the quality of meat that we produced came from the mixed species rather than the straight cereal. The '24 season where it was straight brassica verse mixed, it was the inverse, the eating quality came from the straight. And that's because brassicas are rocket fuel, but ultimately you've got to sit, we still sit in our mixed camp, because we sit on a different mixed system of just brassica base with veg and radish.

Yeah. If you go '23, '24 triticale verse mix, the mix, the eating quality or the quality of meat that we produced came from the mixed species rather than the straight cereal. The '24 season where it was straight brassica verse mixed, it was the inverse, the eating quality came from the straight. And that's because brassicas are rocket fuel, but ultimately you've got to sit, we still sit in our mixed camp, because we sit on a different mixed system of just brassica base with veg and radish.

And that's because the triticale, for the 2023 season, the straight triticale, it just doesn't have the protein levels in it. It actually doesn't have everything that your animal needs to reach that maximum performance, whereas a Peloton will actually provide that additional nitrogen and whatnot the animals do need. So species-

And that's because the triticale, for the 2023 season, the straight triticale, it just doesn't have the protein levels in it. It actually doesn't have everything that your animal needs to reach that maximum performance, whereas a Peloton will actually provide that additional nitrogen and whatnot the animals do need. So species-

So the single species in '24 was the brassica?

So the single species in '24 was the brassica?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was the brassica and it's what produced higher eating quality.

Yeah. It was the brassica and it's what produced higher eating quality.

But less lambs. So the ones that did reach marketable weight had grown faster, had put on their fat probably over for a longer period of time. So the lead up to slaughter was probably better, but there were just less of them that were ready to go.

But less lambs. So the ones that did reach marketable weight had grown faster, had put on their fat probably over for a longer period of time. So the lead up to slaughter was probably better, but there were just less of them that were ready to go.

We'll probably put a lot of the data and the results from those trials in the show notes, but it's been good to get some messages from you guys.

We'll probably put a lot of the data and the results from those trials in the show notes, but it's been good to get some messages from you guys.

So in the trial they're overlaying ideas of how we want it to be run, and how the DPI would like it to run, and what sort of information they want from it When we add a bit more flexibility or take away those constraints and look at how we manage our multi- species normally, I've got a bit of data on a different paddock that probably might enhance people's ideas of what can happen. So this is a 26 hectare paddock, so it's quite a bit larger, but we still stocked it at 12.4 DCs per hectare. So it was what I would call a moderate stocking rate for around here over that three month period. These are ewes and lambs, rather than just straight weaned lambs. This is our research flock, so we have very specific individual data per lamb for that. In that period of growth between four to 10 weeks, average growth rates of those lambs was 370 grams a day, maximum was at 582. So these were just growing like mushrooms. But more importantly, when we were stocking the paddock, the manner in which it was being grazed meant that the ewes and the lambs always had something that they wanted to eat at all times. And so they went in initially and there was a huge amount of radish and brassica in there, and they kind of got stuck into the veg first, and then gradually as they got a taste for the brassica, they got stuck into that, and then the veg kept growing through because they were preferentially grazing the other. And so rather than having a smaller graze period because they just ate everything really quickly, and then each one of those plants needed the same amount of recovery time, we have this preferential grazing, which means that we actually get an extended grazing period in the paddock because the animals are naturally leaving some to regrow. And so not only are we getting massive growth rates, I mean 580 grams a day, you've got a lamb that he's putting on three to four kilos a week. It's a bit nuts, really.

So in the trial they're overlaying ideas of how we want it to be run, and how the DPI would like it to run, and what sort of information they want from it When we add a bit more flexibility or take away those constraints and look at how we manage our multi- species normally, I've got a bit of data on a different paddock that probably might enhance people's ideas of what can happen. So this is a 26 hectare paddock, so it's quite a bit larger, but we still stocked it at 12.4 DCs per hectare. So it was what I would call a moderate stocking rate for around here over that three month period. These are ewes and lambs, rather than just straight weaned lambs. This is our research flock, so we have very specific individual data per lamb for that. In that period of growth between four to 10 weeks, average growth rates of those lambs was 370 grams a day, maximum was at 582. So these were just growing like mushrooms. But more importantly, when we were stocking the paddock, the manner in which it was being grazed meant that the ewes and the lambs always had something that they wanted to eat at all times. And so they went in initially and there was a huge amount of radish and brassica in there, and they kind of got stuck into the veg first, and then gradually as they got a taste for the brassica, they got stuck into that, and then the veg kept growing through because they were preferentially grazing the other. And so rather than having a smaller graze period because they just ate everything really quickly, and then each one of those plants needed the same amount of recovery time, we have this preferential grazing, which means that we actually get an extended grazing period in the paddock because the animals are naturally leaving some to regrow. And so not only are we getting massive growth rates, I mean 580 grams a day, you've got a lamb that he's putting on three to four kilos a week. It's a bit nuts, really.

I reckon that was a steer in the paddock there?

I reckon that was a steer in the paddock there?

No.

No.

No?

No?

Definitely not. He almost looked like a steer at 19 weeks of age, but so not only we've got really great growth rates out of that, we've got healthy animals. We had very little issues in terms of, well, I don't think we had any metabolic problems, which often you do get when it comes to canola, and we had healthy ewes, no mastitis. It simplifies your animal management when you put feed in front of them, that they want to eat, that they can grow on.

Definitely not. He almost looked like a steer at 19 weeks of age, but so not only we've got really great growth rates out of that, we've got healthy animals. We had very little issues in terms of, well, I don't think we had any metabolic problems, which often you do get when it comes to canola, and we had healthy ewes, no mastitis. It simplifies your animal management when you put feed in front of them, that they want to eat, that they can grow on.

I think that's a cool addition that you're getting these numbers in your own business and finding value in recording that. So what's been the result of those trials for your business?

I think that's a cool addition that you're getting these numbers in your own business and finding value in recording that. So what's been the result of those trials for your business?

It's probably just backed up our confidence in our rotation and the types of crops we want to grow. For the 2025 season, we have quite a few paddocks here at Cudal that will go to a brassica- radish mix. So we're leaving the veg out this year primarily because we've got some Barnaby's thistle problems. The control of some Barnaby's doesn't suit veg, so there's no point sowing it. So unfortunately for this season, nitrogen will come from a bag for those paddocks, whereas in Forbes it's a rotation that we like. We've got another hundred hectares of brassica, radish, and veg going in and that will be our July through to November feed. So we should be able to finish our lambs really well in that rotation for us.

It's probably just backed up our confidence in our rotation and the types of crops we want to grow. For the 2025 season, we have quite a few paddocks here at Cudal that will go to a brassica- radish mix. So we're leaving the veg out this year primarily because we've got some Barnaby's thistle problems. The control of some Barnaby's doesn't suit veg, so there's no point sowing it. So unfortunately for this season, nitrogen will come from a bag for those paddocks, whereas in Forbes it's a rotation that we like. We've got another hundred hectares of brassica, radish, and veg going in and that will be our July through to November feed. So we should be able to finish our lambs really well in that rotation for us.

It is good when you get that positive reinforcement on something that you've felt has been good for your business and you feel like instinctively it's the right choice. And when you finally get that backed up by data and science, it must be a good feeling.

It is good when you get that positive reinforcement on something that you've felt has been good for your business and you feel like instinctively it's the right choice. And when you finally get that backed up by data and science, it must be a good feeling.

I think measuring what you do is fundamental to doing the right thing. Because if you don't measure it, you just kind of think that maybe it might be a good idea. I can assure you, when you start measuring, and you're looking at growth rates per day, and number of lambs turned off, and graze days available at particular times, and your capacity to give your pastures rest and recovery because you've got longer graze days on things, all of a sudden putting a system together will work as long as the season goes with you. But you just know it's going to work. So measure it first and then make your decisions from there.

I think measuring what you do is fundamental to doing the right thing. Because if you don't measure it, you just kind of think that maybe it might be a good idea. I can assure you, when you start measuring, and you're looking at growth rates per day, and number of lambs turned off, and graze days available at particular times, and your capacity to give your pastures rest and recovery because you've got longer graze days on things, all of a sudden putting a system together will work as long as the season goes with you. But you just know it's going to work. So measure it first and then make your decisions from there.

Now, for my final question I like to ask, what do you see as the big issue in Australian ag at the moment?

Now, for my final question I like to ask, what do you see as the big issue in Australian ag at the moment?

I think the biggest issue is volatility in prices. Now, I'm not talking just about prices we receive, but prices that we have to pay as well, because we can put a whole system together and project your budgets and how your business is going to function, basically. And then you either get a price slump in your outputs, or you get a price increase in your inputs, and you can still run your system, but at the end of the day, your business isn't functioning as a business is supposed to. So price volatility is super difficult to deal with, and figuring out how to head some of those from an overall business point of view is the most important thing to deal with because we don't have a lot of control over it.

I think the biggest issue is volatility in prices. Now, I'm not talking just about prices we receive, but prices that we have to pay as well, because we can put a whole system together and project your budgets and how your business is going to function, basically. And then you either get a price slump in your outputs, or you get a price increase in your inputs, and you can still run your system, but at the end of the day, your business isn't functioning as a business is supposed to. So price volatility is super difficult to deal with, and figuring out how to head some of those from an overall business point of view is the most important thing to deal with because we don't have a lot of control over it.

It's incredible that farmers obviously have been dealing with these price changes and fluctuations for generations, but nowadays, when you can get a fluctuation of a hundred percent within a few weeks or months, it's pretty hard to do business with that, isn't it?

It's incredible that farmers obviously have been dealing with these price changes and fluctuations for generations, but nowadays, when you can get a fluctuation of a hundred percent within a few weeks or months, it's pretty hard to do business with that, isn't it?

Well, anyone who produced and tried to sell lambs in 2023 didn't have much fun.

Well, anyone who produced and tried to sell lambs in 2023 didn't have much fun.

Absolutely. And so a more positive way to finish the podcast, so what's a big win for Aussie ag, then?

Absolutely. And so a more positive way to finish the podcast, so what's a big win for Aussie ag, then?

Well, I think it's the next generation. We've obviously got children that are just finishing school, and looking at careers, and energized and excited about ag, the technology realm coming into ag, you look at what the top three or 4% of farmers are doing with technology in the cropping space, in their animal space. This next generation of farm workers, of farm owners, they're excited. I know when I went through uni 30 years ago, there was plenty of jobs to be had, but I don't think we had the excitement that these kids are showing. But they want to be in ag, they want to take ag forward. It's really exciting to see there's opportunities in ag, in every sphere, whether it's owning and running farms, or whether it's consulting into farms, it's contracting into farms, the space is an exciting one. Everyone has to eat. But the reality is to do it in the world climate, we have to be profitable, we have to be sustainable. The challenges ahead will be met by this next generation coming through. I think that's really exciting.

Well, I think it's the next generation. We've obviously got children that are just finishing school, and looking at careers, and energized and excited about ag, the technology realm coming into ag, you look at what the top three or 4% of farmers are doing with technology in the cropping space, in their animal space. This next generation of farm workers, of farm owners, they're excited. I know when I went through uni 30 years ago, there was plenty of jobs to be had, but I don't think we had the excitement that these kids are showing. But they want to be in ag, they want to take ag forward. It's really exciting to see there's opportunities in ag, in every sphere, whether it's owning and running farms, or whether it's consulting into farms, it's contracting into farms, the space is an exciting one. Everyone has to eat. But the reality is to do it in the world climate, we have to be profitable, we have to be sustainable. The challenges ahead will be met by this next generation coming through. I think that's really exciting.

Just got goosebumps then, Pete. Nice and fuzzy. Great way to finish, guys. And I've had a great time today. Thanks for your time.

Just got goosebumps then, Pete. Nice and fuzzy. Great way to finish, guys. And I've had a great time today. Thanks for your time.

No worries at all. It's nice to have a chat.

No worries at all. It's nice to have a chat.

Thanks, Rowan.

Thanks, Rowan.

This episode was produced as part of Central West Local Land Service's adapt project through funding from the Australian Government's National Land Care program. Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you by Central West Local Land services. Local Land Services delivers advice and support to farmers, landholders, and the community across New South Wales. To learn more, you can find us online by searching for Central West Local Land Services. If you'd like more information about the topics we discuss today, as well as links to relevant articles, fact sheets, events, and other helpful resources, we've added those into the show notes for this episode. You can find them by tapping or swiping over the cover art in your podcast player now. Hey, and while you're there, please leave us a five- star review. It really helps other farmers find the show. I'm your host, Neroli Brennan, and I'll chat to you next time.