Transcript
00:06
Neroli Brennan
This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host Neroli Brennan. Today, we're catching up with Terry Worthington. Terry owns and runs Four Corners with his wife, Katie, as well as working alongside his father across a total of 7, 000 acres near Condobolin. Their business is split between livestock breeding and trading, with 40% of their business focused on breeding composite cattle and 60% around trading and adjustment of cattle and bare breach Merino sheep. In this episode, Terry talks to us about how he's come to understand the landscape around him as he sits at the watershed of his region, and how appreciating the differences between his property and his surrounding neighbors has led him to simplify his approach to farming and improve the health of soil and the native pasture shrub systems that naturally thrive on his land. Terry explains how, with a shift in his thinking and a desire to move away from time- intensive plowing and annual cropping, he's finding new pastures establishing that have not been previously seen in his lifetime. You'll also hear how changing his approach to managing livestock is reducing the stress for both himself and for his livestock. Local Land Service's Natural Resource Officer Jasmine Wells caught up with Terry on a gorgeous sunny day out at Four Corners.
This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host Neroli Brennan. Today, we're catching up with Terry Worthington. Terry owns and runs Four Corners with his wife, Katie, as well as working alongside his father across a total of 7, 000 acres near Condobolin. Their business is split between livestock breeding and trading, with 40% of their business focused on breeding composite cattle and 60% around trading and adjustment of cattle and bare breach Merino sheep. In this episode, Terry talks to us about how he's come to understand the landscape around him as he sits at the watershed of his region, and how appreciating the differences between his property and his surrounding neighbors has led him to simplify his approach to farming and improve the health of soil and the native pasture shrub systems that naturally thrive on his land. Terry explains how, with a shift in his thinking and a desire to move away from time- intensive plowing and annual cropping, he's finding new pastures establishing that have not been previously seen in his lifetime. You'll also hear how changing his approach to managing livestock is reducing the stress for both himself and for his livestock. Local Land Service's Natural Resource Officer Jasmine Wells caught up with Terry on a gorgeous sunny day out at Four Corners.
Welcome back to the podcast listeners. I am sitting at Four Corners today with Terry Worthington. Welcome to the podcast.
Welcome back to the podcast listeners. I am sitting at Four Corners today with Terry Worthington. Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me, Jas. Pleasure to have you out here again.
Thanks for having me, Jas. Pleasure to have you out here again.
Yeah, it's a beautiful day here today. I've been lucky to be here a few times.
Yeah, it's a beautiful day here today. I've been lucky to be here a few times.
Yep. No, we're very blessed with the weather at the moment. We've had good rain. Well, not a huge amount of rain, but the country just looks magnificent at the moment.
Yep. No, we're very blessed with the weather at the moment. We've had good rain. Well, not a huge amount of rain, but the country just looks magnificent at the moment.
It does. At the moment, it's just an absolute picture. What's going on here? Tell me a little bit about the farm.
It does. At the moment, it's just an absolute picture. What's going on here? Tell me a little bit about the farm.
We're predominantly cattle at the moment, so 40% of my business is a breeding herd of composite cattle and then I'm running 60% trade and adjustment cattle at the present time in a small flock of bare- breached Marinos. Four Corners itself is only a 1, 400 acre block, but we run in partnership with my father Colin on Bonnie Doon. We bought the place 16 years ago, so we've just run the two places together, and now we do have split entities. Katie and I myself have a partnership with, and we have a partnership with dad as well. Together, 7, 000 acres. Just to put that in perspective, the neighbors all around here are probably in the 12, 000, 21,000, 28, 000 acres, so we're the smallest in this area until you go east of us towards Salamore. We're right up on top of the watershed of the Loughlin and the Bogan. At the house here, the water runs to the Bogan and over the ridge just behind us, the Lion Bark Ridge to the west, all that water runs into the catchment of the Loughlin River through the which headwaters of the murder creek.
We're predominantly cattle at the moment, so 40% of my business is a breeding herd of composite cattle and then I'm running 60% trade and adjustment cattle at the present time in a small flock of bare- breached Marinos. Four Corners itself is only a 1, 400 acre block, but we run in partnership with my father Colin on Bonnie Doon. We bought the place 16 years ago, so we've just run the two places together, and now we do have split entities. Katie and I myself have a partnership with, and we have a partnership with dad as well. Together, 7, 000 acres. Just to put that in perspective, the neighbors all around here are probably in the 12, 000, 21,000, 28, 000 acres, so we're the smallest in this area until you go east of us towards Salamore. We're right up on top of the watershed of the Loughlin and the Bogan. At the house here, the water runs to the Bogan and over the ridge just behind us, the Lion Bark Ridge to the west, all that water runs into the catchment of the Loughlin River through the which headwaters of the murder creek.
I love that you have such an understanding of the catchments.
I love that you have such an understanding of the catchments.
Yeah, because up here on the ridge lines, we're on the ridge that runs along the watershed. It's completely different to the rest of the district. Completely different soils, completely different trees, habitat, and a different climate as well as in rainfall. We have a lot of storm activity in summertime. Not unusual to get four inches of rain in an hour here, it's more than normal. Every couple of years, we'll get four inches in an hour. We have had up to 13 to 15 inches overnight, that's happened a couple of times in my lifetime. I've lived in the area all my life. Dad's 89 and he's 90 in a couple of months time, so he's lived here all his life. He grew up on the property next door, Verona, and his father grew up on the property Boona Mount , which was... They moved here in 1909, so yeah, we've got a fair presence in the district. My grandfather, he had four sons, and he was lucky enough to be able to put all those four sons on the properties. Dad was one, uncle Kevin took a block to the west of where we live. Uncle Don or Smokey, he was to the south, he had Boona Trig , which is now Pete Stuckey's place, and then Uncle Peter or Biggles, he had took the original block for Verona, and dad got Bonnie Doon. We've got a good knowledge of the area, but our place, Bonnie Doon, and Four Corners is completely different. As I said to the rest of the district, it's very light soils and more the challenges of that rainfall we get... When we were cropping, we're not cropping anymore, we would be dry two weeks before everybody else in Condo. The soil just didn't have the holding capacity to... our horizon, or if you like, topsoil's probably only 10 centimetres. Well, if you go back down towards the Boona road, along the Boona road, there's topsoils there being measured to the depths they can get them to, which is 12 to eight meters of topsoil. The holding capacity of that country is so much greater than what it is here, whereas we're on a gravel base up on the ridge lines. If you grab a bucket of dirt, you dig down your 40 centimetres, two- thirds to three- thirds of that is going to be stone and gravel, and not soil as such, so your holding capacity straight away is reduced by two- thirds compared to other countries. We've changed our direction of way we manage things to be able to cope with that variety of... Well, not just what falls out of the sky. Our job is now what falls out of the soils to catch it here and to keep it in the soil, which we haven't been all successful for the periods of the past, and so we're seeing the changes now.
Yeah, because up here on the ridge lines, we're on the ridge that runs along the watershed. It's completely different to the rest of the district. Completely different soils, completely different trees, habitat, and a different climate as well as in rainfall. We have a lot of storm activity in summertime. Not unusual to get four inches of rain in an hour here, it's more than normal. Every couple of years, we'll get four inches in an hour. We have had up to 13 to 15 inches overnight, that's happened a couple of times in my lifetime. I've lived in the area all my life. Dad's 89 and he's 90 in a couple of months time, so he's lived here all his life. He grew up on the property next door, Verona, and his father grew up on the property Boona Mount , which was... They moved here in 1909, so yeah, we've got a fair presence in the district. My grandfather, he had four sons, and he was lucky enough to be able to put all those four sons on the properties. Dad was one, uncle Kevin took a block to the west of where we live. Uncle Don or Smokey, he was to the south, he had Boona Trig , which is now Pete Stuckey's place, and then Uncle Peter or Biggles, he had took the original block for Verona, and dad got Bonnie Doon. We've got a good knowledge of the area, but our place, Bonnie Doon, and Four Corners is completely different. As I said to the rest of the district, it's very light soils and more the challenges of that rainfall we get... When we were cropping, we're not cropping anymore, we would be dry two weeks before everybody else in Condo. The soil just didn't have the holding capacity to... our horizon, or if you like, topsoil's probably only 10 centimetres. Well, if you go back down towards the Boona road, along the Boona road, there's topsoils there being measured to the depths they can get them to, which is 12 to eight meters of topsoil. The holding capacity of that country is so much greater than what it is here, whereas we're on a gravel base up on the ridge lines. If you grab a bucket of dirt, you dig down your 40 centimetres, two- thirds to three- thirds of that is going to be stone and gravel, and not soil as such, so your holding capacity straight away is reduced by two- thirds compared to other countries. We've changed our direction of way we manage things to be able to cope with that variety of... Well, not just what falls out of the sky. Our job is now what falls out of the soils to catch it here and to keep it in the soil, which we haven't been all successful for the periods of the past, and so we're seeing the changes now.
Why the change? What caused you to realize that changes needed to be made?
Why the change? What caused you to realize that changes needed to be made?
When I first started farming here back in the early '90s, I used to go to field days. I really got frustrated when I went into farms around Condo and saw their soil types. We were looking at soil pits that had nine meters of topsoil in horizon. I said I just couldn't really relate to that at all, so I stopped any... That was all the thing. Everything was around these better soils, your Bimbo Box country, your better soil Bimbo Box country, so we kept doing what we were doing. We were mainly sheep- orientated, some of wool. We were growing a really good wool in the conditions, which... Because we were wool- orientated, our pastures were annual pastures to try and break away from the perennial '90s, which were spear grasses and a lot of contamination in our wools. Our pastures were based annually and, with our cropping, that made it even more annualized. We focused on our wool and we cropped, because we was under the impression, I was too, that if you didn't crop the year, a country went backwards and became feral quite quickly, and there was no other way about it, you had to put a plow on it. You had to put a one- way plow to keep the pine trees off it, and that was the thing. Within first year of going into a pasture phase, we had galbur would be on it, saffron thistles, and cotton bush. Within three years or four years, the cotton bush was too big that you couldn't drive over them. Within a three- year period, two, your waddle trees where as... Same thing now, it's getting to a stage where they couldn't be driven over, and within seven years, the pine was at a stage where it was detriment to anything. We knew what we were doing, we knew that we're hurting the soil, but at that stage, the only thing we knew to do was to put a one-way plow into it to try and give us some pasture for our merino sheep, for our wool. We weren't making a lot of money cropping, we were doing a very low... Well, not low inputs, but we were doing... Our machinery costs were very low. Bought all machinery with cash, bought everything with cash. We didn't have an overdraft at all, we had no borrowed money. Dad didn't believe in borrowing money. Still can't, doesn't handle stress very well with financials, I've done all the financials for 30 years here, and we fixed everything ourselves, but the scale wasn't there. Don't get me wrong, I've grown some pretty good crops in this light country over the years. We were still poking along, but it was the wool that put the bread and butter on the table.
When I first started farming here back in the early '90s, I used to go to field days. I really got frustrated when I went into farms around Condo and saw their soil types. We were looking at soil pits that had nine meters of topsoil in horizon. I said I just couldn't really relate to that at all, so I stopped any... That was all the thing. Everything was around these better soils, your Bimbo Box country, your better soil Bimbo Box country, so we kept doing what we were doing. We were mainly sheep- orientated, some of wool. We were growing a really good wool in the conditions, which... Because we were wool- orientated, our pastures were annual pastures to try and break away from the perennial '90s, which were spear grasses and a lot of contamination in our wools. Our pastures were based annually and, with our cropping, that made it even more annualized. We focused on our wool and we cropped, because we was under the impression, I was too, that if you didn't crop the year, a country went backwards and became feral quite quickly, and there was no other way about it, you had to put a plow on it. You had to put a one- way plow to keep the pine trees off it, and that was the thing. Within first year of going into a pasture phase, we had galbur would be on it, saffron thistles, and cotton bush. Within three years or four years, the cotton bush was too big that you couldn't drive over them. Within a three- year period, two, your waddle trees where as... Same thing now, it's getting to a stage where they couldn't be driven over, and within seven years, the pine was at a stage where it was detriment to anything. We knew what we were doing, we knew that we're hurting the soil, but at that stage, the only thing we knew to do was to put a one-way plow into it to try and give us some pasture for our merino sheep, for our wool. We weren't making a lot of money cropping, we were doing a very low... Well, not low inputs, but we were doing... Our machinery costs were very low. Bought all machinery with cash, bought everything with cash. We didn't have an overdraft at all, we had no borrowed money. Dad didn't believe in borrowing money. Still can't, doesn't handle stress very well with financials, I've done all the financials for 30 years here, and we fixed everything ourselves, but the scale wasn't there. Don't get me wrong, I've grown some pretty good crops in this light country over the years. We were still poking along, but it was the wool that put the bread and butter on the table.
The cropping just complimented that, because it worked?
The cropping just complimented that, because it worked?
Because everyone else was doing it, so I did it, we did it.
Because everyone else was doing it, so I did it, we did it.
Gave something to talk about in the pub. Dad loved harvest time. He went back to the days when driving seven- ton trucks into Tullamore, you pulled up the silos, and you went to the pub and someone moved the truck for you. Someone moved the truck for you. Then you come over and you did that for three months, trailers went for three months, so he loved it. The denting changed in the '90s and everything got bigger. We didn't get bigger, but we bought a little bit more country, we bought a little block here next to 750 acres of the original Four Corners, which I now own. That was in '89, that was in the wool. Wool was really booming, so we were shearing 100 bales of wool at that stage, so the cropping was still six to 700 acres a year, what we could handle with our small gear and cheap gear. Even then, I just hated having to plough seed and see it washed away at that stage. That's what would happen here in summertime. You do a summer fallow, then you get that four inches in January, February, and you would get a gutter through a paddock that didn't have a gutter in it before.
Gave something to talk about in the pub. Dad loved harvest time. He went back to the days when driving seven- ton trucks into Tullamore, you pulled up the silos, and you went to the pub and someone moved the truck for you. Someone moved the truck for you. Then you come over and you did that for three months, trailers went for three months, so he loved it. The denting changed in the '90s and everything got bigger. We didn't get bigger, but we bought a little bit more country, we bought a little block here next to 750 acres of the original Four Corners, which I now own. That was in '89, that was in the wool. Wool was really booming, so we were shearing 100 bales of wool at that stage, so the cropping was still six to 700 acres a year, what we could handle with our small gear and cheap gear. Even then, I just hated having to plough seed and see it washed away at that stage. That's what would happen here in summertime. You do a summer fallow, then you get that four inches in January, February, and you would get a gutter through a paddock that didn't have a gutter in it before.
You know if that topsoil is washing away, a lot of your moisture is going with it.
You know if that topsoil is washing away, a lot of your moisture is going with it.
Yeah, well, we never stored it. The fallow was just what you did to control weeds and to get a soft surface for seed contract, or your in- crop rain was what grew the crop, because we didn't have the holding capacity in a lot of the soils to hold water. He'd start with a beautiful soil, it'd come out of the pasture face from a native pasture, it looked beautiful. Then you had to work it three times and, every rain, you turn around and worked it. Four workings was probably... No, minimum four workings. That's all I did for three or four years. I came home, that's all I did, was sit on a tractor, working country up, because well, at that stage, wool had crashed, we'd had the wool crash, so we started putting more emphasis on our cropping, and even through the crash times, we relied on... The wool was what paid the bills all the time. Now, come to the present day where I've done a complete shift totally and we're not wool- orientated at all, we're now cattle- orientated, and that's changed the country totally. Gone back to a native grass country and I've now got water holding capacity in country that never held water before. Runoff is totally reduced, and growing grass we haven't seen. As I said, dad, he's 90 this year, and a lot of the grasses, he's never seen before.
Yeah, well, we never stored it. The fallow was just what you did to control weeds and to get a soft surface for seed contract, or your in- crop rain was what grew the crop, because we didn't have the holding capacity in a lot of the soils to hold water. He'd start with a beautiful soil, it'd come out of the pasture face from a native pasture, it looked beautiful. Then you had to work it three times and, every rain, you turn around and worked it. Four workings was probably... No, minimum four workings. That's all I did for three or four years. I came home, that's all I did, was sit on a tractor, working country up, because well, at that stage, wool had crashed, we'd had the wool crash, so we started putting more emphasis on our cropping, and even through the crash times, we relied on... The wool was what paid the bills all the time. Now, come to the present day where I've done a complete shift totally and we're not wool- orientated at all, we're now cattle- orientated, and that's changed the country totally. Gone back to a native grass country and I've now got water holding capacity in country that never held water before. Runoff is totally reduced, and growing grass we haven't seen. As I said, dad, he's 90 this year, and a lot of the grasses, he's never seen before.
You haven't introduced them, they're just coming back naturally?
You haven't introduced them, they're just coming back naturally?
They're naturally there, the seed bank was there. 80- year- old seed bank, maybe 100- year- old seed bank. On the lighter country, the change is so dramatic and happened so quickly. That was a big shock. The question, look back at myself and say, " How do I change the thought process that the country was going to go backwards without cropping?" Really, was the change for me was when I bought the mulcher. I've got a tractor- driven, PTA- driven forestry mulcher four meters wide originally, and so I had all these thoughts about the cotton bush. I've just got to stop trying to plow this cotton bush country up, because it was just totally destroying it. There was nothing really growing. It was all annualized, so if you didn't get rain within six weeks, you had no feed. In 2016, we were lucky enough we'd had a good wet year. We had the tax incentive, it was tax- free, we right off within 12 months, so I was lucky enough to be able to grab a new one at that stage. Tried it out, I thought it was just going to be for the cotton bush to trim up the galbur, so I used it first on that. Did a fantastic job. Actually, I had too low at that stage. Machine, I made them like bowling greens. The paddocks, beautiful after what the mulch had gone through. I really wasn't thinking about what the mulch was doing itself to the soil or anything like that. Then I stepped it up and then I started going over some little trees, little suckers. Did a fantastic job on that, and then bigger pine trees. If I could drive over in the tractor, willing to drive over in the tractor, it would mulch it, and the pine doesn't come back once it's mulched. It's totally changed the situation here with the plow. Stop that day and never plow it again. I've found now, with the wattle, the wattle will keep coming back, but I keep it under a certain height and stock grazing it, and their grazing habits have changed with the wattle too. They now utilize it 100%, and with the change in our rotation with our grazing practices, it's now a useful tool. The country where the wattle is is fantastic feed under that now, because it's nutrients there with the mulching.
They're naturally there, the seed bank was there. 80- year- old seed bank, maybe 100- year- old seed bank. On the lighter country, the change is so dramatic and happened so quickly. That was a big shock. The question, look back at myself and say, " How do I change the thought process that the country was going to go backwards without cropping?" Really, was the change for me was when I bought the mulcher. I've got a tractor- driven, PTA- driven forestry mulcher four meters wide originally, and so I had all these thoughts about the cotton bush. I've just got to stop trying to plow this cotton bush country up, because it was just totally destroying it. There was nothing really growing. It was all annualized, so if you didn't get rain within six weeks, you had no feed. In 2016, we were lucky enough we'd had a good wet year. We had the tax incentive, it was tax- free, we right off within 12 months, so I was lucky enough to be able to grab a new one at that stage. Tried it out, I thought it was just going to be for the cotton bush to trim up the galbur, so I used it first on that. Did a fantastic job. Actually, I had too low at that stage. Machine, I made them like bowling greens. The paddocks, beautiful after what the mulch had gone through. I really wasn't thinking about what the mulch was doing itself to the soil or anything like that. Then I stepped it up and then I started going over some little trees, little suckers. Did a fantastic job on that, and then bigger pine trees. If I could drive over in the tractor, willing to drive over in the tractor, it would mulch it, and the pine doesn't come back once it's mulched. It's totally changed the situation here with the plow. Stop that day and never plow it again. I've found now, with the wattle, the wattle will keep coming back, but I keep it under a certain height and stock grazing it, and their grazing habits have changed with the wattle too. They now utilize it 100%, and with the change in our rotation with our grazing practices, it's now a useful tool. The country where the wattle is is fantastic feed under that now, because it's nutrients there with the mulching.
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
When you're trading some stock, getting new stock in, do you try and run them with some stock that are used to grazing that way?
When you're trading some stock, getting new stock in, do you try and run them with some stock that are used to grazing that way?
Absolutely, 100% I integrate them straight away. I noticed, with the adjustment catalog came in this last year, they didn't want them integrated, so they didn't get integrated with my stock at all, but they have now. It was amazing. There's an innate knowledge in those stock about grazing, they've never seen a courage wrong tree. They've never seen a balla tree and never seen a rosewood tree, but as soon as they came to a tree, those three trees, they grazed them straight away.
Absolutely, 100% I integrate them straight away. I noticed, with the adjustment catalog came in this last year, they didn't want them integrated, so they didn't get integrated with my stock at all, but they have now. It was amazing. There's an innate knowledge in those stock about grazing, they've never seen a courage wrong tree. They've never seen a balla tree and never seen a rosewood tree, but as soon as they came to a tree, those three trees, they grazed them straight away.
They just knew to look up for feed instead of just looking down.
They just knew to look up for feed instead of just looking down.
Yeah, from looking down. I thought that would be the complete opposite. They've never seen a tree down there, there's no connection to it at all. There is an ability for that animal to test turn two and to see itself, and they've done that with the wattle as well. They've tested and tried. One will try it, one will test it. Quite difficult with the wattle, though, because it sends out tannins straight away once it's been grazed. Found out this from Africa. In Africa, we visited South Africa last year, and one of the guides was talking about... We're looking at a herd of giraffes and they're actually going at a pretty steep gallop and grazing the acacia. They only eat two types of acacia over there that grow, and the guy was explaining to me that the acacia send out messages to other acacias, then sends a tannin up to them, so they've actually got to beat the message going, so they feed into the wind and they do it at speed. I came back in and watched. I introduced my cattle into a paddock that had wattle and watched what they did, and they did exactly the same thing. They got into the wind, downwind of the wattle, and I did it at pace and they just went through and grazed through quickly, and they did that for every different patches in the paddock and they did that for the first two or three days, and then they couldn't touch it anymore. Then I moved them again and they did it fresh pace, and did the same thing again. The livestock have got this innate ability through, as I said, Australia was once connected to Africa, the biggest shock I saw when I went there was how much kangaroo grass river. They call it red grass. It is thousands and thousands of acres of kangaroo grass. When Gondwana land were split up, kangaroo grass, all the grass that we have here is all the same as they have over there. You introduce ones here now, your digit grasses, your sub- tropicals, they all go well here, because it is the same country. It's amazing, but unfortunately, we've lost a lot of knowledge of what this country does. Only trying to gain that back now, but it's so interesting. You can watch a mob stock graze now, and that's why time, I slow down now and I watch what's grazing.
Yeah, from looking down. I thought that would be the complete opposite. They've never seen a tree down there, there's no connection to it at all. There is an ability for that animal to test turn two and to see itself, and they've done that with the wattle as well. They've tested and tried. One will try it, one will test it. Quite difficult with the wattle, though, because it sends out tannins straight away once it's been grazed. Found out this from Africa. In Africa, we visited South Africa last year, and one of the guides was talking about... We're looking at a herd of giraffes and they're actually going at a pretty steep gallop and grazing the acacia. They only eat two types of acacia over there that grow, and the guy was explaining to me that the acacia send out messages to other acacias, then sends a tannin up to them, so they've actually got to beat the message going, so they feed into the wind and they do it at speed. I came back in and watched. I introduced my cattle into a paddock that had wattle and watched what they did, and they did exactly the same thing. They got into the wind, downwind of the wattle, and I did it at pace and they just went through and grazed through quickly, and they did that for every different patches in the paddock and they did that for the first two or three days, and then they couldn't touch it anymore. Then I moved them again and they did it fresh pace, and did the same thing again. The livestock have got this innate ability through, as I said, Australia was once connected to Africa, the biggest shock I saw when I went there was how much kangaroo grass river. They call it red grass. It is thousands and thousands of acres of kangaroo grass. When Gondwana land were split up, kangaroo grass, all the grass that we have here is all the same as they have over there. You introduce ones here now, your digit grasses, your sub- tropicals, they all go well here, because it is the same country. It's amazing, but unfortunately, we've lost a lot of knowledge of what this country does. Only trying to gain that back now, but it's so interesting. You can watch a mob stock graze now, and that's why time, I slow down now and I watch what's grazing.
I was going to ask what you do with all your extra time now that you're not plowing, recreationally.
I was going to ask what you do with all your extra time now that you're not plowing, recreationally.
Overseas trips.
Overseas trips.
Yeah, overseas trips. Yeah, I must admit, we've had probably since we changed our direction. I put away the chemical drum and stopped telling the diesel guy to turn up.
Yeah, overseas trips. Yeah, I must admit, we've had probably since we changed our direction. I put away the chemical drum and stopped telling the diesel guy to turn up.
We've had six overseas trips, we've got another two booked for this year.
We've had six overseas trips, we've got another two booked for this year.
That's amazing, so there's lifestyle changes that have come-
That's amazing, so there's lifestyle changes that have come-
100% lifestyle changes. Yeah. People tell me that they've noticed a difference in me as well, a much more relaxed person, carefree. It's no stress, absolutely. I know that myself.
100% lifestyle changes. Yeah. People tell me that they've noticed a difference in me as well, a much more relaxed person, carefree. It's no stress, absolutely. I know that myself.
How do you make your decisions, though? Yes, you're not dealing with the fuel and the chem, but you still are trading, breeding.
How do you make your decisions, though? Yes, you're not dealing with the fuel and the chem, but you still are trading, breeding.
How are you making those calls? Because we've had a pretty good run with livestock, but there's still a lot of decisions to remain, and there's still imports and...
How are you making those calls? Because we've had a pretty good run with livestock, but there's still a lot of decisions to remain, and there's still imports and...
I had a pretty big toolbox of tools I use in my strategies, which I use. I don't like to label the grazing system I use, because it's not really a system, I use chaos as... The system is chaos. I go back to nature. When I can, I look to what happens in nature and try and mimic it as best I can and what I can observe here. Yeah, I use chaos grazing. I look what's happening and I'll change off as much. Now I'm trying to get just to one mob, I'm down to two mobs here. Last year, I was at three mobs, so I had three. I was running what you'd call three cells, rotationally grazing through those, and didn't have a time set, because it was raining so much last year and the grass kept growing. Last year, grass grew all year. July, for about three weeks. It did stop growing. I could do a very quick rest period, so it was probably four... Because I had the three cells, I was averaging about... Paddocks size, about 250 acres, which now I'm reducing down 100 acres, but splitting most paddocks in half. Mob sizes was probably around about 5, 000 to 3, 000 DEC per mob, and one mob had sheep and cattle combined in it as well, and it was probably... Yeah, so trying to get a non- selective graze. Originally, that's what was happening when it first started introducing stock to this size mobs. Their first introduction was a non- selective graze. It was all very competitive, they come from the gate, now we just eat everything. They've got a bit cunning now, because they've worked out what's going on. They get changed every day, so what they do now, they come do, and just take the ice cream. I'm going to do a change up again this year and just do a really high density in smaller paddocks, and three moves a day for a while. Just try and get that change, change them up, and to try and stop that selective grazing, which is now happening with the dev learned. The stock will learn, I'm trying to unlearn that, and get the competitors back into them, so they'll eat everything in their paddock.
I had a pretty big toolbox of tools I use in my strategies, which I use. I don't like to label the grazing system I use, because it's not really a system, I use chaos as... The system is chaos. I go back to nature. When I can, I look to what happens in nature and try and mimic it as best I can and what I can observe here. Yeah, I use chaos grazing. I look what's happening and I'll change off as much. Now I'm trying to get just to one mob, I'm down to two mobs here. Last year, I was at three mobs, so I had three. I was running what you'd call three cells, rotationally grazing through those, and didn't have a time set, because it was raining so much last year and the grass kept growing. Last year, grass grew all year. July, for about three weeks. It did stop growing. I could do a very quick rest period, so it was probably four... Because I had the three cells, I was averaging about... Paddocks size, about 250 acres, which now I'm reducing down 100 acres, but splitting most paddocks in half. Mob sizes was probably around about 5, 000 to 3, 000 DEC per mob, and one mob had sheep and cattle combined in it as well, and it was probably... Yeah, so trying to get a non- selective graze. Originally, that's what was happening when it first started introducing stock to this size mobs. Their first introduction was a non- selective graze. It was all very competitive, they come from the gate, now we just eat everything. They've got a bit cunning now, because they've worked out what's going on. They get changed every day, so what they do now, they come do, and just take the ice cream. I'm going to do a change up again this year and just do a really high density in smaller paddocks, and three moves a day for a while. Just try and get that change, change them up, and to try and stop that selective grazing, which is now happening with the dev learned. The stock will learn, I'm trying to unlearn that, and get the competitors back into them, so they'll eat everything in their paddock.
Are you seeing that with new stock you've brought in too, that they know they can just eat the ice cream and move on, or does it take them a little while to learn what's happening?
Are you seeing that with new stock you've brought in too, that they know they can just eat the ice cream and move on, or does it take them a little while to learn what's happening?
No. New stock seemed to not do that, actually. The new ones introduced in... That's how I got away for last year, I had two big mobs introduced, 400 breeding cows brought in last year. I was able to get really good pressure on the country that needed, on the country that had gone. It was too much body to the feed, so I needed to reduce that biomass, and they were unable to do that. Originally, they came in and they didn't cherry- pick, they total grazed, because they came, and that's the system they were used to... Because in their systems, they came from down at Holbrook where everything's edible, and they didn't realize... They got here that everything wasn't edible, no one told them that, but they worked that out within time that they've worked that out, " These things are more powerful, we don't have to eat everything. We can just eat all this, we're going to go on a new paddock, and if we stand at that gate long enough, he'll open it." You've got to look at what nature's doing and how nature works and what nature's trying to do to combat what's happening with what you are doing to nature. That's a never- ending cycle in that respect.
No. New stock seemed to not do that, actually. The new ones introduced in... That's how I got away for last year, I had two big mobs introduced, 400 breeding cows brought in last year. I was able to get really good pressure on the country that needed, on the country that had gone. It was too much body to the feed, so I needed to reduce that biomass, and they were unable to do that. Originally, they came in and they didn't cherry- pick, they total grazed, because they came, and that's the system they were used to... Because in their systems, they came from down at Holbrook where everything's edible, and they didn't realize... They got here that everything wasn't edible, no one told them that, but they worked that out within time that they've worked that out, " These things are more powerful, we don't have to eat everything. We can just eat all this, we're going to go on a new paddock, and if we stand at that gate long enough, he'll open it." You've got to look at what nature's doing and how nature works and what nature's trying to do to combat what's happening with what you are doing to nature. That's a never- ending cycle in that respect.
Because you run grazing charts as well.
Because you run grazing charts as well.
Yeah, I run grazing charts. I use KLR marketing, which is principle management of using principles to use management of your livestock. It's livestock, grass, and money, so managing those three things together. The cornerstone of KLR is your sell- buy, which is a complete swap around how everybody else works, but it's not a new concept that's in every commodity. It's in everything you sell- buy. All big operations work on sell- buy, not buy- sell. Farmers, for some reason, we work on buy- sell. We buy it to sell it, whereas everybody else sells to buy, so we are way behind eight- ball there. That's enabled me to make a lot of confident decisions about livestock.
Yeah, I run grazing charts. I use KLR marketing, which is principle management of using principles to use management of your livestock. It's livestock, grass, and money, so managing those three things together. The cornerstone of KLR is your sell- buy, which is a complete swap around how everybody else works, but it's not a new concept that's in every commodity. It's in everything you sell- buy. All big operations work on sell- buy, not buy- sell. Farmers, for some reason, we work on buy- sell. We buy it to sell it, whereas everybody else sells to buy, so we are way behind eight- ball there. That's enabled me to make a lot of confident decisions about livestock.
Because you're selling into the same market you plan to buy into?
Because you're selling into the same market you plan to buy into?
Once you have the principles of KLR and sell- buy down or only buying, which the main one is sell the overpriced stock and buy the underpriced. Replace with underpriced. Once you have that system, doesn't matter if the market goes up, doesn't matter if the market goes down, doesn't matter if it rains, doesn't matter if it doesn't rain. Only thing that matters to you is you have to have the grass. It's automatic profit, but you have to not run out of grass. Grass management is the most important thing. People think the most important thing is what the prices you pay. No, the most important thing, the most opportunities you have is with your grass. Learning how to manage your grass through your feed budgets. I do a feed budget, I walk out and do a feed budget, a grass budget. I shouldn't call it a feed budget, because people think of grain when they think of feed and what you're feeding out. I don't feed any grain out. I have no intention to feed any grain out, any hay. I just use what's in the paddock, what nature gives me for nothing, and it is the best thing. That's what the animal craves, and that's what it wants. That comes down to the other things. You need to build diversity into your grasses, into your plants. Once you have diversity, your stock do so much better.
Once you have the principles of KLR and sell- buy down or only buying, which the main one is sell the overpriced stock and buy the underpriced. Replace with underpriced. Once you have that system, doesn't matter if the market goes up, doesn't matter if the market goes down, doesn't matter if it rains, doesn't matter if it doesn't rain. Only thing that matters to you is you have to have the grass. It's automatic profit, but you have to not run out of grass. Grass management is the most important thing. People think the most important thing is what the prices you pay. No, the most important thing, the most opportunities you have is with your grass. Learning how to manage your grass through your feed budgets. I do a feed budget, I walk out and do a feed budget, a grass budget. I shouldn't call it a feed budget, because people think of grain when they think of feed and what you're feeding out. I don't feed any grain out. I have no intention to feed any grain out, any hay. I just use what's in the paddock, what nature gives me for nothing, and it is the best thing. That's what the animal craves, and that's what it wants. That comes down to the other things. You need to build diversity into your grasses, into your plants. Once you have diversity, your stock do so much better.
You are seeing that happen naturally.
You are seeing that happen naturally.
Naturally. It wants to be diverse, nature wants to heal itself. It's continually trying to heal itself to the mistakes you make with it. Once you leave it alone... This is the biggest problem we have in Australian agriculture, is we won't leave things alone. If we're not doing something, we're doing it wrong.
Naturally. It wants to be diverse, nature wants to heal itself. It's continually trying to heal itself to the mistakes you make with it. Once you leave it alone... This is the biggest problem we have in Australian agriculture, is we won't leave things alone. If we're not doing something, we're doing it wrong.
Yeah, that's true. Sometimes making a decision to do nothing...
Yeah, that's true. Sometimes making a decision to do nothing...
That is the hardest decision, and that's probably the most challenging decision to make, to do nothing. That's the biggest one I had battled with too, was to do nothing. For me, I was lucky that... The mulching allowed me to get through that stage.
That is the hardest decision, and that's probably the most challenging decision to make, to do nothing. That's the biggest one I had battled with too, was to do nothing. For me, I was lucky that... The mulching allowed me to get through that stage.
Gave you something to do, yeah.
Gave you something to do, yeah.
Yeah. I still could give me a diesel fix, because cropping is an addiction. Everybody laughs and says that, but it is a real addiction. You just struggle to not to do it.
Yeah. I still could give me a diesel fix, because cropping is an addiction. Everybody laughs and says that, but it is a real addiction. You just struggle to not to do it.
It's rewarding, too-
It's rewarding, too-
Because it's a simple fix.
Because it's a simple fix.
You go out to do a job and the job gets done, and if that might be Kelly chaining, which isn't great often for soil structure, but you can look back and go, " Gee, that paddock looks good."
You go out to do a job and the job gets done, and if that might be Kelly chaining, which isn't great often for soil structure, but you can look back and go, " Gee, that paddock looks good."
Yeah, and you can look straight across the paddock. Whereas the system I've got now, I've got to get down on my hands and knees.
Yeah, and you can look straight across the paddock. Whereas the system I've got now, I've got to get down on my hands and knees.
That's it. You look down, not across. Once you'd stop looking across your paddocks and look down at your paddocks, then that's the big difference, you see the big difference. Getting perenniality back into these soils has been the key. The lighter soils, the perenniality saves them, and the livestock do so much better on perennials than they do annuals. Annuals are a quick fix, they're just a drug. They give them that six weeks of big bang, and then it's like any drug, when you're coming off, it's no good. That's how it affects the animal. Has that big bang and then it's a drop down in nutrition. Big changes nutrition all the time. Whereas your perennials, they push through dry times, they push through frosts, they push through all weather conditions. If you've got your right balance, which nature will give you that balance, it's happy days and easy sailing, really. I can't emphasize how easy it really is. Just a few things, you just need you to have your toolbox of tools and to follow some easy principles of soil health and trading. With the KLR, your marketing, follow the principles, you'll never go wrong.
That's it. You look down, not across. Once you'd stop looking across your paddocks and look down at your paddocks, then that's the big difference, you see the big difference. Getting perenniality back into these soils has been the key. The lighter soils, the perenniality saves them, and the livestock do so much better on perennials than they do annuals. Annuals are a quick fix, they're just a drug. They give them that six weeks of big bang, and then it's like any drug, when you're coming off, it's no good. That's how it affects the animal. Has that big bang and then it's a drop down in nutrition. Big changes nutrition all the time. Whereas your perennials, they push through dry times, they push through frosts, they push through all weather conditions. If you've got your right balance, which nature will give you that balance, it's happy days and easy sailing, really. I can't emphasize how easy it really is. Just a few things, you just need you to have your toolbox of tools and to follow some easy principles of soil health and trading. With the KLR, your marketing, follow the principles, you'll never go wrong.
You're keeping it pretty simple.
You're keeping it pretty simple.
That's the biggest thing now, I'm following people who do things simply. Even though I'm working in a chaotic system with nature, but what I'm doing is simple, I'm trying to do it simply, so chaos and simplicity together works. The other way around doesn't work, when you try and simplify nature, and chaos at the other end on your side. When you try and simplify nature, it's chaotic on your side, so I swap it around
That's the biggest thing now, I'm following people who do things simply. Even though I'm working in a chaotic system with nature, but what I'm doing is simple, I'm trying to do it simply, so chaos and simplicity together works. The other way around doesn't work, when you try and simplify nature, and chaos at the other end on your side. When you try and simplify nature, it's chaotic on your side, so I swap it around
For the listener, Terry's just sitting here chilled, laying back in his chair talking about it, too. You can visibly see the change in him over the years.
For the listener, Terry's just sitting here chilled, laying back in his chair talking about it, too. You can visibly see the change in him over the years.
Yeah, yeah. Someone asked me, " What was the light bulb moment?" I haven't had a light bulb moment. Just little things over time have just got away with me, and I'm one of those lucky people that can accept change. You have four character types and I'm in a lucky character type that accepts change very easily, and then there's people who can't accept change and they're never going to. It's very stressful for them, change, and that's just the unfortunate nature of things.
Yeah, yeah. Someone asked me, " What was the light bulb moment?" I haven't had a light bulb moment. Just little things over time have just got away with me, and I'm one of those lucky people that can accept change. You have four character types and I'm in a lucky character type that accepts change very easily, and then there's people who can't accept change and they're never going to. It's very stressful for them, change, and that's just the unfortunate nature of things.
Everyone's different, aren't they?
Everyone's different, aren't they?
Yeah, everybody's different. Everybody's different, but everybody's the same.
Yeah, everybody's different. Everybody's different, but everybody's the same.
There's ways around that, too. Even though you're saying you had your mulcher and then you've just bought an Optiway too, so that's another way of utilizing technology. You're still keeping things simple, but you've got another tool there that can help you, and you're actively using that to make decisions every day, too.
There's ways around that, too. Even though you're saying you had your mulcher and then you've just bought an Optiway too, so that's another way of utilizing technology. You're still keeping things simple, but you've got another tool there that can help you, and you're actively using that to make decisions every day, too.
I am now. Probably bought it for different reasons what other people buy their Optiway. The Optiway is, for the people who don't know, it's an in- paddock weighing device for cattle. There is one for sheep now, but it's not as successful as the cattle one. The cattle come on, put their two front feet on it, there's an attractor in, I just use salt, plain salt, which I have out for all stock 24/7, 12 months a year. That weighs that individual animal, takes its ear tag number, its IOD number, and then goes to the satellite, goes back to the office in Armadale, where it's all collated, then it gets sent. I get an email every morning of what the cattle have done, what the cattle have been on it, and what they weigh. Top, bottom, what the weight gain is. For me, what I'm using for at the moment, which I didn't think really... I thought it was all going to be about weights, what the weight of the cattle were. The changes in weight gain is so stark from climatic conditions, rain events. The drop is incredible. You look at my stock, there's no way you can tell that my stock have actually been losing a kilo a day. They've been losing a kilo a day since it started raining three weeks ago, because there's changes happening with the grasses and their gut we can't see. They're healthy, but they've dropped a kilo a day, because they look fantastic. They're shiny and look fantastic, but they'll put on two and a half kilos at some time.
I am now. Probably bought it for different reasons what other people buy their Optiway. The Optiway is, for the people who don't know, it's an in- paddock weighing device for cattle. There is one for sheep now, but it's not as successful as the cattle one. The cattle come on, put their two front feet on it, there's an attractor in, I just use salt, plain salt, which I have out for all stock 24/7, 12 months a year. That weighs that individual animal, takes its ear tag number, its IOD number, and then goes to the satellite, goes back to the office in Armadale, where it's all collated, then it gets sent. I get an email every morning of what the cattle have done, what the cattle have been on it, and what they weigh. Top, bottom, what the weight gain is. For me, what I'm using for at the moment, which I didn't think really... I thought it was all going to be about weights, what the weight of the cattle were. The changes in weight gain is so stark from climatic conditions, rain events. The drop is incredible. You look at my stock, there's no way you can tell that my stock have actually been losing a kilo a day. They've been losing a kilo a day since it started raining three weeks ago, because there's changes happening with the grasses and their gut we can't see. They're healthy, but they've dropped a kilo a day, because they look fantastic. They're shiny and look fantastic, but they'll put on two and a half kilos at some time.
It gives you a better understanding of what's happening to the pasture.
It gives you a better understanding of what's happening to the pasture.
Yeah, it gives me a total understanding of what's happening. This is the weird thing. The best growth rates I had was when it was at the driest, and I thought the feed was going off and I thought, "Oh, no. It's no good," but it was actually cured. The grass was cured and it was amazing. As soon as it rained and I thought, " It's a rain, I've got this great flush of feed." No, the complete opposite.
Yeah, it gives me a total understanding of what's happening. This is the weird thing. The best growth rates I had was when it was at the driest, and I thought the feed was going off and I thought, "Oh, no. It's no good," but it was actually cured. The grass was cured and it was amazing. As soon as it rained and I thought, " It's a rain, I've got this great flush of feed." No, the complete opposite.
I know we said we don't over- complicate things, but it'd be really interesting to get some nutrient testing done to try and correlate that, but it wouldn't change the decisions you're making. What do you do then in those cases? You're just aware of it? If you were fattening stock, you would move them elsewhere?
I know we said we don't over- complicate things, but it'd be really interesting to get some nutrient testing done to try and correlate that, but it wouldn't change the decisions you're making. What do you do then in those cases? You're just aware of it? If you were fattening stock, you would move them elsewhere?
Wouldn't add a jazz, because it's just what happens. If I'd got them into the yards and weighed them, they would've lost more weight getting them into the yards away for a start, but I wouldn't have had a clue what had happened. I would've said, "It must have worked," and would've bloody drenched them. Probably something like we had. It must be a reason why, but I can see straight away, within an hour, that the climatic conditions have changed, and when the barometer drops, it's the same again. When the barometer drops, their weight gain drops too, stark. There's a lot of things we don't know what's happening with animals, and it's a big eye- opener for me. Yes, so what it tells me at the moment, I've just got to make sure I've got the nutrition of those animals looked after. Moving forward, I need to have probably less focus on what's actually in front of them, and just think that's what's going to happen to probably become that chaos again. Chaos is in nature and this is a chaotic thing. If we look at weight gain, we narrow it down to the 0.7, which is the Australian national average of 0. 7, but everybody... I've never known anybody who had 0. 7. Everybody's over a kilogram, I'm sure, and that's what they say, once everybody gets over a kilo until they get an Optiway, and then it comes back to 0. 7, because you're actually measuring it.
Wouldn't add a jazz, because it's just what happens. If I'd got them into the yards and weighed them, they would've lost more weight getting them into the yards away for a start, but I wouldn't have had a clue what had happened. I would've said, "It must have worked," and would've bloody drenched them. Probably something like we had. It must be a reason why, but I can see straight away, within an hour, that the climatic conditions have changed, and when the barometer drops, it's the same again. When the barometer drops, their weight gain drops too, stark. There's a lot of things we don't know what's happening with animals, and it's a big eye- opener for me. Yes, so what it tells me at the moment, I've just got to make sure I've got the nutrition of those animals looked after. Moving forward, I need to have probably less focus on what's actually in front of them, and just think that's what's going to happen to probably become that chaos again. Chaos is in nature and this is a chaotic thing. If we look at weight gain, we narrow it down to the 0.7, which is the Australian national average of 0. 7, but everybody... I've never known anybody who had 0. 7. Everybody's over a kilogram, I'm sure, and that's what they say, once everybody gets over a kilo until they get an Optiway, and then it comes back to 0. 7, because you're actually measuring it.
The animal itself can't put on 0. 7 a kilo a day, the fluctuations is huge through everything involved, so I'm still learning what I'm doing with that Optiway at the moment, because it's been a bit of a shock to me this last four, five weeks of the differences in it. When I look at the stock and they're healthy, doing so well, so content, but their bodies haven't adjusted yet. Their guts are changing over. There's a fight happening in their stomachs between these dry feed gut bugs and the green feed bugs, must be causing all this. When one does win, when there's more dry feed and then green feed and its population takes over, then bang, then you'll get the compensatory gain in the weight gain. The compensatory gain can be incredible. You can get three kilos compensatory gain in a short period of time.
The animal itself can't put on 0. 7 a kilo a day, the fluctuations is huge through everything involved, so I'm still learning what I'm doing with that Optiway at the moment, because it's been a bit of a shock to me this last four, five weeks of the differences in it. When I look at the stock and they're healthy, doing so well, so content, but their bodies haven't adjusted yet. Their guts are changing over. There's a fight happening in their stomachs between these dry feed gut bugs and the green feed bugs, must be causing all this. When one does win, when there's more dry feed and then green feed and its population takes over, then bang, then you'll get the compensatory gain in the weight gain. The compensatory gain can be incredible. You can get three kilos compensatory gain in a short period of time.
Yeah. That's all through the gut, the bugs in the gut in the rumen.
Yeah. That's all through the gut, the bugs in the gut in the rumen.
I guess, you lining this up with your grazing charts as well, it'll help you make decisions in the future too. Well, and when I say future, I mean trading in the next few months.
I guess, you lining this up with your grazing charts as well, it'll help you make decisions in the future too. Well, and when I say future, I mean trading in the next few months.
Yes, but you still need to go out and do that grass budget. You can't get tied up where your benchmark is on your grazing chart. You need to do that grass budget.
Yes, but you still need to go out and do that grass budget. You can't get tied up where your benchmark is on your grazing chart. You need to do that grass budget.
How long does a grass budget take you now? Because they can be confronting when you're first learning how to do a grass budget.
How long does a grass budget take you now? Because they can be confronting when you're first learning how to do a grass budget.
Well, for me, it's a drive over the pack. I walk out of the pack. I can tell if a paddocks at 400 DC days or 800 DC days or 1500 DC days down straight away.
Well, for me, it's a drive over the pack. I walk out of the pack. I can tell if a paddocks at 400 DC days or 800 DC days or 1500 DC days down straight away.
No time at all.
No time at all.
... once you've done it.
... once you've done it.
I did it properly to start with and just taught myself, because I had the knowledge anyway. I've been looking at livestock all my life and grass all my life. Really quick transition to me to be able to do it properly, but still, I get caught... This is where the Optiway comes in. I get caught on the quality of that feed, so that's where I'm hoping that that'll be able to tell me straight what the quality is like. Even the green feed, quality is not there and the transition in between winter and summer feed would be the same, or the autumn. It's not really winter and summer. It should transition your autumn transition and your spring transition, which is... Well, you spring into summer transition is more your problem with your nutrition in your feed, but it's just all a learning curve.
I did it properly to start with and just taught myself, because I had the knowledge anyway. I've been looking at livestock all my life and grass all my life. Really quick transition to me to be able to do it properly, but still, I get caught... This is where the Optiway comes in. I get caught on the quality of that feed, so that's where I'm hoping that that'll be able to tell me straight what the quality is like. Even the green feed, quality is not there and the transition in between winter and summer feed would be the same, or the autumn. It's not really winter and summer. It should transition your autumn transition and your spring transition, which is... Well, you spring into summer transition is more your problem with your nutrition in your feed, but it's just all a learning curve.
How do you pick which mob to... Because you've got the two mobs, which mob has the Optiway?
How do you pick which mob to... Because you've got the two mobs, which mob has the Optiway?
I rotate it between what I feel like.
I rotate it between what I feel like.
I just moved it yesterday to a little... I bought a few Speckle Park cows a couple weeks ago and I've just chucked it in there to see what weight they were, just to get them used to it. Yeah, ideally, you'd have two. If money wasn't a problem, you have two in each mob, but I'll get down to one mob. That's the plan. I'll get down to one mob, so it'll just stay in there. I run a mixed mob, so I don't wean anymore. The calves stay on, and if the mom doesn't wean it and she doesn't get back into calf, or that mom then goes. Well, that's what I've done this year. I've run very hard my cattle this year. Probably because I want to find out what's happening with my cattle. I make other mistakes with other people's cattle, which is another way of doing it, use other people's stock to make mistakes. I've run mine really hard this year. Not the paddocks, not the grass. I've run my grass hard, I've just run the stock hard, which is completely different. Just find out how fertile they are. The true fertility.
I just moved it yesterday to a little... I bought a few Speckle Park cows a couple weeks ago and I've just chucked it in there to see what weight they were, just to get them used to it. Yeah, ideally, you'd have two. If money wasn't a problem, you have two in each mob, but I'll get down to one mob. That's the plan. I'll get down to one mob, so it'll just stay in there. I run a mixed mob, so I don't wean anymore. The calves stay on, and if the mom doesn't wean it and she doesn't get back into calf, or that mom then goes. Well, that's what I've done this year. I've run very hard my cattle this year. Probably because I want to find out what's happening with my cattle. I make other mistakes with other people's cattle, which is another way of doing it, use other people's stock to make mistakes. I've run mine really hard this year. Not the paddocks, not the grass. I've run my grass hard, I've just run the stock hard, which is completely different. Just find out how fertile they are. The true fertility.
What do you mean by you've run them hard?
What do you mean by you've run them hard?
Well, I've been running probably forward store condition, whereas most cattle have been fat this year. In the last 12 months, I've run them at forward store to store condition. Their body score has been around two to three to see, if they can cope with a nutrient stress on the animal to see what happens. What happened with the weaners was fantastic. Top to sale, I've been topping the sale for the last three years with my weaners. Did it again a couple of weeks ago. The weight gain's no worries at all, so their moms have worked hard to put the milk through those. Some cows have got two calves on them, and I've left the heifers in as well this year. I've joined the heifers and the cows all with the same bulls, which is completely different than what I've ever done before.
Well, I've been running probably forward store condition, whereas most cattle have been fat this year. In the last 12 months, I've run them at forward store to store condition. Their body score has been around two to three to see, if they can cope with a nutrient stress on the animal to see what happens. What happened with the weaners was fantastic. Top to sale, I've been topping the sale for the last three years with my weaners. Did it again a couple of weeks ago. The weight gain's no worries at all, so their moms have worked hard to put the milk through those. Some cows have got two calves on them, and I've left the heifers in as well this year. I've joined the heifers and the cows all with the same bulls, which is completely different than what I've ever done before.
Yeah. Normally, you'd use smaller bulls?
Yeah. Normally, you'd use smaller bulls?
Normally, I have in the past, used a specific... Just to put an extra stress on that as well. We've bred stocks that aren't hardy enough.
Normally, I have in the past, used a specific... Just to put an extra stress on that as well. We've bred stocks that aren't hardy enough.
Yeah. Instead of breeding the stock to cope with the conditions, we've tried changing the conditions, which is-
Yeah. Instead of breeding the stock to cope with the conditions, we've tried changing the conditions, which is-
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not fighting nature now, this is what nature... Nature will tell me what size cattle I can have, and if that cow's not fertile enough, it's a win for me, because it's cashflow in my bank. I'm pretty open, I'm open when I come through it. I don't think I'm going to see it, though. It's got a very fertile herd.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not fighting nature now, this is what nature... Nature will tell me what size cattle I can have, and if that cow's not fertile enough, it's a win for me, because it's cashflow in my bank. I'm pretty open, I'm open when I come through it. I don't think I'm going to see it, though. It's got a very fertile herd.
If I get 75% pregnancy rate, I would be quite happy, because it'd be a big boost to my wallet, but I don't think I'm going to see that. I think I'm going to see 95 to 90%, just looking at the cattle themselves and just from passing things I've done. I just want to make sure. I'm throwing them out to 300 kilos, have been off for the last three years. I'd like to get that. Now I've got the Optiway, I'm going to get them off at 250, hopefully. Well, 250 and not take them to the 300.
If I get 75% pregnancy rate, I would be quite happy, because it'd be a big boost to my wallet, but I don't think I'm going to see that. I think I'm going to see 95 to 90%, just looking at the cattle themselves and just from passing things I've done. I just want to make sure. I'm throwing them out to 300 kilos, have been off for the last three years. I'd like to get that. Now I've got the Optiway, I'm going to get them off at 250, hopefully. Well, 250 and not take them to the 300.
Yeah, so weaning them onto the truck?
Yeah, so weaning them onto the truck?
Weaning them onto the truck.
Weaning them onto the truck.
The big difference I see now with my stock, when they go into the yards, they don't act like stock that have been weaned onto the truck. They make no noise and they're very calm, very easy to handle at the yards at Forbes, and that was the big eye- opener to me. I did this a few years ago, not by choice, but by what happened, I didn't wean up the calves. I just noticed then, when I thought they're going to play up, when they got there, they were calm. The cows were a bit different home. They stressed about... They'd lost their calf, walked around, because they were such good mothers, but the calves themselves weren't worried about it at all. It was quite amazing. I've looked at that now two years running and they're so calm in there. You would've thought that they'd been weaned... You'd say that people would've said, " No, there's definitely been yard weaned two to three weeks and being fed and all this, and they're so calm. They're not bellowing." All the other animals in the yard are bellowing away the same age, same weight size, they're bellowing. Mind you, I have changed the way I handle my stock, too. I've done this low- stress stock handling.
The big difference I see now with my stock, when they go into the yards, they don't act like stock that have been weaned onto the truck. They make no noise and they're very calm, very easy to handle at the yards at Forbes, and that was the big eye- opener to me. I did this a few years ago, not by choice, but by what happened, I didn't wean up the calves. I just noticed then, when I thought they're going to play up, when they got there, they were calm. The cows were a bit different home. They stressed about... They'd lost their calf, walked around, because they were such good mothers, but the calves themselves weren't worried about it at all. It was quite amazing. I've looked at that now two years running and they're so calm in there. You would've thought that they'd been weaned... You'd say that people would've said, " No, there's definitely been yard weaned two to three weeks and being fed and all this, and they're so calm. They're not bellowing." All the other animals in the yard are bellowing away the same age, same weight size, they're bellowing. Mind you, I have changed the way I handle my stock, too. I've done this low- stress stock handling.
That's what I was going to say. They've had no stress, really.
That's what I was going to say. They've had no stress, really.
That's another toolbox for me. Another tool and toolbox is a low- stress stock handling. It's imprinting a stress- free life from birth, and that's an amazing advantage. I notice so much difference with the stock that have come in.
That's another toolbox for me. Another tool and toolbox is a low- stress stock handling. It's imprinting a stress- free life from birth, and that's an amazing advantage. I notice so much difference with the stock that have come in.
I think, across the board, people have got better at that. You go to the yards now and there's just... If you get there early, there's livestock moving calmly and quietly through the lanes and there's not a lot of yahooing.
I think, across the board, people have got better at that. You go to the yards now and there's just... If you get there early, there's livestock moving calmly and quietly through the lanes and there's not a lot of yahooing.
I think all of that value- adds to someone like you, too. They've had no stress there, why would they be scared about the truck? They get to the yards, there's not people hitting them with poly and carrying on, and it's all time-
I think all of that value- adds to someone like you, too. They've had no stress there, why would they be scared about the truck? They get to the yards, there's not people hitting them with poly and carrying on, and it's all time-
Yeah, I've got to say, I've had a lot of trucks coming in and out of here in the last four years, and I just take my hat off to the truck drivers. They do it, because they love handling stock. I reckon it's the worst job of all, bloody stocky truck driver, but they just love handling stock and they treat them with so much respect.
Yeah, I've got to say, I've had a lot of trucks coming in and out of here in the last four years, and I just take my hat off to the truck drivers. They do it, because they love handling stock. I reckon it's the worst job of all, bloody stocky truck driver, but they just love handling stock and they treat them with so much respect.
They're so good at it.
They're so good at it.
They're so good, yeah. I have not had a bad one. I've probably had 15, 20 B- double drivers come through here from different companies from all over the place, and they're all fantastic.
They're so good, yeah. I have not had a bad one. I've probably had 15, 20 B- double drivers come through here from different companies from all over the place, and they're all fantastic.
Yeah, I'm seeing that, too. The changes from when I was a child. I'm not opposed to using a jigger, I think they have a place-
Yeah, I'm seeing that, too. The changes from when I was a child. I'm not opposed to using a jigger, I think they have a place-
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
... but just the way people utilize those tools and the way they move through the yards has changed completely, I think, in the last 10, 20 years.
... but just the way people utilize those tools and the way they move through the yards has changed completely, I think, in the last 10, 20 years.
It's great to see. As you said, and when you gather the yards there, they move so easily and quietly. Yeah, no one has a bit of poly pipe anymore. Thank God.
It's great to see. As you said, and when you gather the yards there, they move so easily and quietly. Yeah, no one has a bit of poly pipe anymore. Thank God.
We should talk a little bit about Condo Landcare. You are working as a consultant or are you employed by Condo Landcare now as an advisor?
We should talk a little bit about Condo Landcare. You are working as a consultant or are you employed by Condo Landcare now as an advisor?
Well, I like to describe myself as the grazing group contact person.
Well, I like to describe myself as the grazing group contact person.
Okay. It's a very unofficial title.
Okay. It's a very unofficial title.
Well just to be quite upfront, so I am on the books for an hour a week with Landcare.
Well just to be quite upfront, so I am on the books for an hour a week with Landcare.
You do more than that just in our grazing chart.
You do more than that just in our grazing chart.
Yeah, yeah. That covers me for insurance reasons. I do all the coordination between the group and speakers, and everything in between. Role I really love.
Yeah, yeah. That covers me for insurance reasons. I do all the coordination between the group and speakers, and everything in between. Role I really love.
We've got a good little group.
We've got a good little group.
We have a great group.
We have a great group.
Fantastic. The knowledge in there is amazing.
Fantastic. The knowledge in there is amazing.
I know. When we first started talking about this, I thought, " How are we going to get people to come?"
I know. When we first started talking about this, I thought, " How are we going to get people to come?"
But even just for us, with the few numbers we have, that extra confidence I get and motivation every time we catch up or there's something on the chat about a grazing budget or something, it's just that little bit of peace of mind that there's people who've got your back to help you through some decisions.
But even just for us, with the few numbers we have, that extra confidence I get and motivation every time we catch up or there's something on the chat about a grazing budget or something, it's just that little bit of peace of mind that there's people who've got your back to help you through some decisions.
Everybody's so supportive and we're all different. We all have different shows, I don't push what I do on anybody-
Everybody's so supportive and we're all different. We all have different shows, I don't push what I do on anybody-
... because what works for me works for me.
... because what works for me works for me.
Some piece of advice or, "This is what I did and it went wrong," or, " This works for me." I'm loving it.
Some piece of advice or, "This is what I did and it went wrong," or, " This works for me." I'm loving it.
I really come away energized every time I speak to anybody about it, and as I said, you don't have to uptake, do everything to my level.
I really come away energized every time I speak to anybody about it, and as I said, you don't have to uptake, do everything to my level.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm probably going to be extreme compared to anybody else in the group, the way I manage the place, but everybody knows their own place so much better than anybody else.
I'm probably going to be extreme compared to anybody else in the group, the way I manage the place, but everybody knows their own place so much better than anybody else.
That's right.
That's right.
That's what I'm trying to foster in the group, that you know your place better than anybody else. I think, to me, that's probably been the most rewarding, seeing people realize that, that they do have the knowledge. They've lacked the thoughts that they didn't know what was happening on their place, because someone... A lot of people have used the... Don't get me wrong, growers have a fantastic role in agriculture, but it's taken a lot of the independence away from people, their thought processes of how to go through how to make decisions, and as farmers or as people, decision making doesn't come natural to everybody.
That's what I'm trying to foster in the group, that you know your place better than anybody else. I think, to me, that's probably been the most rewarding, seeing people realize that, that they do have the knowledge. They've lacked the thoughts that they didn't know what was happening on their place, because someone... A lot of people have used the... Don't get me wrong, growers have a fantastic role in agriculture, but it's taken a lot of the independence away from people, their thought processes of how to go through how to make decisions, and as farmers or as people, decision making doesn't come natural to everybody.
That is true, and you get caught in a cycle that's very consistent.
That is true, and you get caught in a cycle that's very consistent.
Yeah, yeah. That's something that you can't quantify easily. That's the biggest thing for me that I've seen, the growth of people's decisions making, sound decisions based on the principles that we can give them in Landcare to work on when you follow those principles. Takes a guesswork out of decision making, and making a decision quite easy and less stressful. The key to what we're doing with our type of management is we have principles we can follow. Ever I have a problem here, I think starts going back to my old ways, I have to stop myself and just look at what the principles are of soil health, " What are my KLR principles? What are my principles that I follow as a person?" If anybody can change like I've changed, anybody can change, which is great.
Yeah, yeah. That's something that you can't quantify easily. That's the biggest thing for me that I've seen, the growth of people's decisions making, sound decisions based on the principles that we can give them in Landcare to work on when you follow those principles. Takes a guesswork out of decision making, and making a decision quite easy and less stressful. The key to what we're doing with our type of management is we have principles we can follow. Ever I have a problem here, I think starts going back to my old ways, I have to stop myself and just look at what the principles are of soil health, " What are my KLR principles? What are my principles that I follow as a person?" If anybody can change like I've changed, anybody can change, which is great.
Knowing what your goal is and not just, " My goal is to make money," and that's all the principles are.
Knowing what your goal is and not just, " My goal is to make money," and that's all the principles are.
The goals that you live by or the goals that you manage by.
The goals that you live by or the goals that you manage by.
That's your personal principles, right? You've got to get that sorted first.
That's your personal principles, right? You've got to get that sorted first.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's what I did early on, worked out what really my principle was. You can call them goals, you can call them whatever. Don't get me wrong, if you can't make money doing... It's one of my principles, I have to make a profit in what I'm doing.
That's what I did early on, worked out what really my principle was. You can call them goals, you can call them whatever. Don't get me wrong, if you can't make money doing... It's one of my principles, I have to make a profit in what I'm doing.
A lot of people in the areas that we're in don't focus enough on that. Make claims that they can't follow up, because they can't make it go down the profitable line. Whereas everything I do has to be profitable. The more you simplify and reduce your inputs, the more profitable you are straight away.
A lot of people in the areas that we're in don't focus enough on that. Make claims that they can't follow up, because they can't make it go down the profitable line. Whereas everything I do has to be profitable. The more you simplify and reduce your inputs, the more profitable you are straight away.
I think that's one thing about the group, is that it gives people the confidence to, one, admit that we're about money and the confidence to make those decisions to back that up based on what their principles and goals are.
I think that's one thing about the group, is that it gives people the confidence to, one, admit that we're about money and the confidence to make those decisions to back that up based on what their principles and goals are.
If you can't be profitable with your principles, you are not going to be influencing anything. You're not going to be helping yourself, you're not going to be helping nature, you're not going to be helping the community. You're a bit of a waste of space, really.
If you can't be profitable with your principles, you are not going to be influencing anything. You're not going to be helping yourself, you're not going to be helping nature, you're not going to be helping the community. You're a bit of a waste of space, really.
That's so true.
That's so true.
We've got a grazing group, what's the plan for it for the future?
We've got a grazing group, what's the plan for it for the future?
Big plans, I don't do little plans, but the most exciting one for me this year will be just going to run a sole lady grazing day.
Big plans, I don't do little plans, but the most exciting one for me this year will be just going to run a sole lady grazing day.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, which is in the process now. I've got male keel down as being our-
Yeah, which is in the process now. I've got male keel down as being our-
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So inspiring.
So inspiring.
She's fantastic. Yep, she is.
She's fantastic. Yep, she is.
Just absolutely knows her stuff, does it with such confidence and grace, and I just love catching up with her, because one of those people you walk away from, you're just so motivated.
Just absolutely knows her stuff, does it with such confidence and grace, and I just love catching up with her, because one of those people you walk away from, you're just so motivated.
Yeah, yeah. You feel enjoys in, and she has just had it all about her, don't she? Yeah. She'll take the day. At this stage, you'll be here at Four Corners, but if you can find anybody else who wants to take it on, that'd be fantastic.
Yeah, yeah. You feel enjoys in, and she has just had it all about her, don't she? Yeah. She'll take the day. At this stage, you'll be here at Four Corners, but if you can find anybody else who wants to take it on, that'd be fantastic.
Sure. Anyone who's keen, give me a call.
Sure. Anyone who's keen, give me a call.
I haven't approached anybody else about it yet, because I just thought it probably easy from my logistic side.
I haven't approached anybody else about it yet, because I just thought it probably easy from my logistic side.
It is, and it's quite essential. I mean, I know you're not near a town as such, but for travel, it's fine.
It is, and it's quite essential. I mean, I know you're not near a town as such, but for travel, it's fine.
We're not near a town, the house itself is big enough. Weather's not going to worry, so that's the biggest thing.
We're not near a town, the house itself is big enough. Weather's not going to worry, so that's the biggest thing.
Yeah, that'll be great. I'm really looking forward to that.
Yeah, that'll be great. I'm really looking forward to that.
This is the first time you've come out of here, you're having more rain with you, too.
This is the first time you've come out of here, you're having more rain with you, too.
It's one of the first times recently where I haven't had to pull up at the creek and wait a while before I can get through.
It's one of the first times recently where I haven't had to pull up at the creek and wait a while before I can get through.
Sorry, I'll work on-
Sorry, I'll work on-
Well, I'll expect the storm this afternoon or tomorrow.
Well, I'll expect the storm this afternoon or tomorrow.
Yeah, hopefully.
Yeah, hopefully.
Yeah. That's the exciting thing for us, to get some more connection. I love using this term, we need to be exclusive to be inclusive.
Yeah. That's the exciting thing for us, to get some more connection. I love using this term, we need to be exclusive to be inclusive.
Yes, I like that.
Yes, I like that.
I don't know where I heard it. Well, I didn't make it up. I heard it somewhere else, I'm sure, but what we're trying to do is to make the grazing group more inclusive, so make it a friendly place for everybody.
I don't know where I heard it. Well, I didn't make it up. I heard it somewhere else, I'm sure, but what we're trying to do is to make the grazing group more inclusive, so make it a friendly place for everybody.
Yeah. I'm a lot more open- minded about women's... I get really frustrated that sometimes it feels like the men are forgotten, but then I go to a workshop, there'll be four women, I'm one of the outspoken ones, and some of them aren't confident to speak up.
Yeah. I'm a lot more open- minded about women's... I get really frustrated that sometimes it feels like the men are forgotten, but then I go to a workshop, there'll be four women, I'm one of the outspoken ones, and some of them aren't confident to speak up.
As you say, we do need to be exclusive to be inclusive to help people build that confidence. Yeah, I agree.
As you say, we do need to be exclusive to be inclusive to help people build that confidence. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. I won't even be here on the day, I'm going out and do some of my own stuff-
Yeah. I won't even be here on the day, I'm going out and do some of my own stuff-
All right. Okay, yeah.
All right. Okay, yeah.
Do my own stuff. Your mail will just run everything and I'm sure you'll help her too, Jas. I'll give you things to do, and our great chair at Landcare, Ruth Allen, who's fantastic.
Do my own stuff. Your mail will just run everything and I'm sure you'll help her too, Jas. I'll give you things to do, and our great chair at Landcare, Ruth Allen, who's fantastic.
Yeah. She's another one that's inspiring.
Yeah. She's another one that's inspiring.
Yeah, incredible. What she's done for Landcare, in her and Brian. That's the big one for me, and then we'll stick to our normal... What we're trying to change, maybe our normal process of four seasonal meetings a year on different places. Very excited for me. I've now cultured a good working relationship with Ragerie Canoban Corporation.
Yeah, incredible. What she's done for Landcare, in her and Brian. That's the big one for me, and then we'll stick to our normal... What we're trying to change, maybe our normal process of four seasonal meetings a year on different places. Very excited for me. I've now cultured a good working relationship with Ragerie Canoban Corporation.
Yeah, they're great to work with.
Yeah, they're great to work with.
Yeah, which is going to be fantastic for Landcare. I don't know how this hasn't happened in the past.
Yeah, which is going to be fantastic for Landcare. I don't know how this hasn't happened in the past.
We haven't had any involvement and we just mesh so well together.
We haven't had any involvement and we just mesh so well together.
That's a big thing for Landcare for me, and getting involved with the grazing group. I think, our next day, we'll probably be out at the Ragerie farm at Lake Howe, and there's a lot more things happening on that scale as well, getting involved with. If two people turned up, it's a success for me, really, because I know those two people are there to do something, to learn things.
That's a big thing for Landcare for me, and getting involved with the grazing group. I think, our next day, we'll probably be out at the Ragerie farm at Lake Howe, and there's a lot more things happening on that scale as well, getting involved with. If two people turned up, it's a success for me, really, because I know those two people are there to do something, to learn things.
That's right.
That's right.
50 people turn up, we've had 50 in the past, we can handle that too. That's no drivers.
50 people turn up, we've had 50 in the past, we can handle that too. That's no drivers.
Anyway, we might finish it up there, Terry. If anyone does want to get in contact with Terry, you can do that via Condo Landcare and we'll put contact details on the bottom of the podcast, or you can do that via me through LLS. Thank you so much for your time today, Terry.
Anyway, we might finish it up there, Terry. If anyone does want to get in contact with Terry, you can do that via Condo Landcare and we'll put contact details on the bottom of the podcast, or you can do that via me through LLS. Thank you so much for your time today, Terry.
Thanks, Jas. It's been a pleasure, thank you.
Thanks, Jas. It's been a pleasure, thank you.
This episode of Seeds for Success is supported by the Australian government through funding from the Natural Heritage Trust under the Climate Smart Agriculture Program, and delivered by Local Land Services, a member of the Commonwealth Regional Delivery Partners panel. Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you by Central West Local Land Services. Local Land Services delivers advice and support to farmers, landholders, and the community across New South Wales. To learn more, you can find us online by searching for Central West Local Land Services. If you'd like more information about the topics we discuss today, as well as links to relevant articles, fact sheets, events, and other helpful resources, we've added those into the show notes for this episode. You can find them by tapping or swiping over the cover art in your podcast player now. Hey, and while you're there, please leave us a five- star review. It really helps other farmers find the show. I'm your host, Neroli Brennan, and I'll chat to you next time.