Good evening.
My name's Jeff Minchin, senior ag advisor with Local Land Services working in the drought adoption officer program and I
will be your host this evening for tonight's webinar uh welcome to tonight's event and thank you for taking
the time to join us uh for this very topical session discussing early weaning for dry times uh with our own Brett
Littler from Local Land Services based at Mudgee before we get started tonight uh
I'd just like to acknowledge that we are all dialling in from what was and always will be Aboriginal land I pay my respect
to Wiradjari people who are the traditional custodians of the land and waters on
which I stand today and also extend that to the traditional custodians of who are you are all
representing today um as well as Elders past present and
emerging just a quick acknowledgement of the funding sources that have been provided to um to host these webinars um
to this this webinar series and this is number five uh has been part of a um
webinar series brought to you by our saving our soils during drought program
um and that has been funded through the southern innovation
drought Hub um and also through funding from the future drought
fund the um the the the purpose of these
webinars is to help producers across the state uh and assist them in making decisions and management of livestock
through the current dry period and dry times that we're experiencing particularly on the North and Eastern
parts of the state all webinars in this series have all been recorded and you
can access them by registering on the links to each of the webinars or heading across to our YouTube channel or social
media uh to uh to catch up on anything you may have missed over the last few
weeks if during tonight you'll um you'll see there's a little control panel on the side if you have any questions uh
please jump in there and um add your questions into the questions tab um
there will also be a few links um either in the resource tab or with uh with the
recording that you'll get sent tomorrow um after everything has been finalized and
finished um so this evening as I said we've had Brett Littler from local Land
Services in tonight's session Brett's going to outline some tips and strategies around early weaning of
livestock both sheep and cattle um discussing some things around better
utilization of feed resources increased Market flexibility and maintaining herd
productivity and through fertility and long recovery times Brett is a senior
land service officer in our saving our soils during drought program based at
Mudgee Brett has got over 25 years experience in livestock production breeding and management as an extension
officer and as a producer himself so welcome Brett thanks very much
chff all right well we uh we might let you kick off thanks very much Mike um
for Wars for armed everyone um joys of this the things that go on and
when we try to do these things um we've had a blackout here where I'm trying to
do my presentation uh so I've actually had to come out away from my desk um to
do the presentation outside so apologies um if there's a little bit of background noise uh and the like but uh we'll we'll
see how we go I'm currently hot spotting off a phone so uh we'll see how we go Jeff you might end up having to do back
end of the slides mate uh so we'll kick into it tonight
really um it's one of those things that uh early wounding of lambs and carves that
that we we definitely see uh really when we get into those dry
times uh we get one of these questions you know how
do I do it what do I do um and there's a lot of practical tips um that go with it there is really a lot
of learning uh that goes in and and through this early waning that we see um
and but before you get in there really it's one of those things that I try to
ask people um you know to ask yourself a few feeding points so why are you
actually feeding um and it's important to to ask yourself that that question
what are you trying to achieve so when we're looking at early weaning you know what's our goal for these animals what
are we trying to achieve um there's some critical things that we talk about you know we talk about weight gains we like
to get them to certain weights um what are the issues with feeding you know but it um what what are the health
challenges that we might run into uh also what are some of the issues with some of the food products different bits
and pieces that we try to feed how are we going to try to manage it the setups that we've got the water Etc so ask
yourself what those issues are sit down work it out and also are we doing it the
right way the best way and the cheapest way um for me uh I I tend to for for my
situation on our farm um sometimes I'm not doing it the cheapest way but I'm doing it the best way which is the right
way for me because I spend a lot of time away from home uh it's very hardworking
full-time and then coming back and and trying to feed very quickly so yep sometimes there's some cheaper better
options out there but that's not the best method for me it's not doesn't suit
the gear that I've got um or the system that that I'm trying to implement so you
know these are sort of part of the way up of of how you do it um and and I know
particularly when I look at early wounding um that you know sometimes it is there's some give and takes um you
know would this is what you should be doing but this is what's going to work for you which may not be exactly the
gold standard or the best way of doing it but it's going to be the way that works for
you also if you're looking at buying INF food and bringing in feed it's important
that you do it on an energy protein and dry matter basis I can't keep harping on
this enough um it's really important today I was with some producers this afternoon and we were talking about some
of the variation in some of the feeds that we've seen um you know so really
sit down work it out uh question came up from from one of the producers this afternoon saying oh I was thinking about
this I'm going well that's actually 50% dry matter so instead of costing you XY
Z per ton it's you have to double it on a dry matter basis so you know really
important that you do look at that energy protein and also dry matter bases
also um you know we we do run into the issue with sometimes funny feeds and I know I
was talking to a vet earlier on the week that that had a funny feed and and was
saying you know this is what they're feeding what's the possible issues um
we're getting some of these Hayes you know might be good quality but sometimes they just aren't suitable at times for
these early wor cares unless you're putting them in total mixed rations or they may have have an issue and and
today um bet that I was working with mentioned about some issues we had in
2019 with with military and nitrate poisoning you know happen to be in
certain areas um the other thing if it sounds too good to be true then it
usually is so really important that um people are aware of that um that you
know that it can be a really big issue that sometimes some of these things um
you know we get a pretty big high sales pitch done to us on different things and
you know when you sit down and sort of go okay is is it right um uh yes or
no uh find out ask some questions you know
if invariably if it sounds too good to be true then it really is um I've I've
in my career I've had times where I've had people say you can feed this and and
you'll be fine uh but other times we we do run into some big issues with
some of these Foods what I would say is there's a
number of different tools that we do use when we're doing using uh things like
trying to give this advice one of the ones that that I really do advise producers to look at is the drought food
calculator it's a great tool um there there is some upgrades happening to it
at the moment um just a couple of things to be aware of you need to in waste
waste is one of these things you know particularly when we're looking at feeding um depending on this the way the
method that you're feeding sometimes waste can be quite High we talk about you know sometimes grain we'll look at
five six% grain but at times I've seen up to 30% waste given the correct well
incorrect feeding uh or or poor sight po methods Etc um the other one that I
would say is poor sampling of food can have a real real effect and and this
afternoon we were talking with a group of farmers and I talked about some of my experience with some feeds that you know
people haven't correctly sampled that feed and you know they've gone and used that information and when we've gone
done tests we haven't seen that same results so be a bit careful if you're doing your own food test that you do
take the time to do good good food sampling to ensure good numbers but the drought food calculator
great tool the other one that that's out there is the Dr and supplementary food
calculator it's a very useful tool for those of you lucky enough to to have a bit of feed it it enables you to put in
your pasture side of things um and look at that in comparison to the animals and
and then sort of say okay how much do we actually need to supplement in what I would say with this like with any of
these tools that are out there garbage in equals garbage out so if you don't assess those passes correctly you know
you're too generous or too kind with with what's there it really can affect what you see at the back
end the other one that I talk about and I use regularly I have this running
pretty much regularly on my computer for any of the the questions that I tend to
you know phone calls and the inquiries that I tend to get I I use this all the
time it's a food cost calculator I find it extremely useful tool for me when
when I'm trying to work through and look at different feeds and compare one to the other very quickly but more
importantly when I'm trying to make up a mix particularly when I'm talking about early weaning where I talk about minimum
proteins minimum energies that I want XYZ of protein for these animals I want
XYZ of protein of these ones it it is a tool that I use all the time it's very
very easy to make little changes um with with things like you know your your
legums Etc hey change that around and change the percentages to have a real
big to show the variation even this morning talking to someone before I took
off they were asking me a question of how many how many what percentage of Faber be should they have in their mix
um and and it was pretty easy for me to say look Faber be yes they're 26% etc
etc but this is how much it should have in your in that mix
so what is early weaning early weaning has been around for for a long time um
you know it's it's been a great tool in the toolbox that we use but early
weaning for me is weaning earlier than normal or ideal during during conditions
that weren't the practice um look in saying that I think there's a
lot of benefits of of weaning early regularly um but what we tend to see is
during these drafts is that we see people really going in very very early
um but for me early weaning um is normally what we talk about is 14 weeks
after the staff start of laming for lams uh or six week laming or before six
to seven months for cattle and and that's for me when I'm talking about early weaning that's where I'm I'm
talking about um there's obviously different step in that early weaning uh
but you know early weaning is a great way to manipulate uh the nutritional
requirements of our cows in our use um and and it's a great way to manage those
cows and use um so it's definitely a great tool for the toolbox and and as
someone who messaged me this morning um saying you know pushing it that can be
used regularly to to treat those cows and use this dry animals
why early weaning really feeding a lamb in a car
through a a dam or you is is very inefficient there's you know because
there's a an hour for this webinar I won't go into it fully but there's there's a lot of inefficiency there
where we start to get the when these lams new start to get up they start to
compete with their moms there's inefficiency you know loss of the Sagal grooves so all of a sudden they're
ruminating so that milk moving through so it it it really is inefficient
um what I do know is once I get up doesn't matter how I do my sums and how
I break my sums down it always is more efficient to split a calf and a
lamb off a car and a u rather than try to feed that lamb or calf by the U or
the care yeah you know always doesn't matter how you do them sumers it always works out that way it also allows better
allocation for limited food resources all of a sudden you know even at home I saw this with with our wieners at home
we early weaned we were able to put those cares in a paddock that we'd have saved um put them in there after we'd
had a couple of weeks locked up feeding them get them out on what little green
food we'd had and and they did really well over a period of time if ID taken
those cows and carbs and put there that feed with what the amount that we had there and the cows that we would have
put in there that would have been struggling the lastest two weeks whereas all of a sudden we were able to get a
month and a bit out of that padic before we had to move those wieners into another padic and really started to step
up our feeding so you know it really allows us to better allocate that
limited food resource you know if you've got a little padic loosen etc etc you know it helps work that out the other
thing about it is cows and USS get by on less energy and protein content you know
they really require less um and what we see and even S I saw this at home uh
this year was all of a sudden I put cows in the paddocks and I'm going okay we
better watch these and all of a sudden they picked up they improved they bloomed and all sudden we saw a fair bit
of uh that free nutritional kick we tend to get because all of a sudden these
animals don't require such a high quality food the other big thing about it is we maintain that fatal condition
on those cows and use and it really does help those those females get back in
calf keeps that fat on them we don't have to you know manage them quite as closely um and and and put in
interventions to help lift or look at Spike feeding and things like that so really we look got that longer recovery
if we don't um try to maintain that her her
fertility when I talk about you and Cal performance these are just some numbers and look the rough off the back of the
envelope they what we're looking at a minimum me 7 to eight me for for a Care
on a CF to for survival crude protein 6 to
9% if we're looking at pregnancy eight and 89 but once we get into that lactating
really I'm looking at an MA of 10 and a and a protein of 12 as a minimum and to
give you a bit of an idea um we're seeing a number of Hayes from lasty that
uh you know only just seven or eight mes and only got proteins of of um six to n
so even putting lactating cows on that highy as much as they can physically eat
they cars and use we're still going to see them lose weight and and the like so
really um you know that quality of feed is diminished if if we treat that animal
as a dry animal rather than keep her lactating and trying to feed that car for the
land just to give you a little bit of an idea um use on the left uh cows on the
right um what you can see there is you know if we look at a 50 kou dry she's
only going to need roughly around about 7 me um pregnant you know she's going to be
up up sort of getting close that requirement of of 12 me if she's
lactating 18 to 19 Mily you know so you can really see that that increase in
megajoules per day that that carow require the the U requires cars you can
really see that you know a car five 00 Kil 60 60 plus me if she's pregnant in
that last little bit of pregnancy um you know she's getting up over 80 all of a
sudden if she's lactating you're more or less doubling it out and it's getting up to roughly around about 120 so really
you see the importance of you know trying to minimize what we're having to
feed those cows and use if if we're still in that situation we haven't got the feed in the padic where we're trying
to to feed them um it's important that we make these years and cows dry as
quick as we can why early wi we better utilize that
high quality parure we can better use utilize supplementary Foods the other
thing we save water which which a lot of people um don't T tend to think about um
and we increase our Market flexibility so if we've got those cares early weaned
we've looked after done the right thing with them all of a sudden by doing that we're able
to particularly if we're doing the right thing fed them well looked after them well we've all of a sudden got the
flexibility uh We've also got cars that we're not trying to Splinter cars and use it we're not trying to you know um
sell just just as we're starting to Wi and splintering carbs and Liams off so
really does help us with that marketing but really the big benefits is we can
better use the supplementary food but also there's a decrease in water requirements by stopping that K you from
laate when should you early win and and this is always the question that I get
asked you know when should should I early win how quick should I go and what I always say is it depends it depends on
the circumstance it depends on the spread of the The Carving and
leaming but really it is the condition of the and the cow that really dictates
that decision um if if I've got cows um
that that are starting to slip down into to you know lowend fat score two and
starting to drop into a fat score one that's really telling me that I need to be thinking about pulling the trigger
and going um you know I'm not going to be able to pick those cars up with that
Cal on them you know I need to pull that trigger all of sudden if we're trying to lift a cow and a u up a fat score um you
know average size 50 kilo U lift her up a fat score is is roughly around about
seven kilos you that takes a bit of time if we're looking at cow same story 500
kilo K 70 to 80 kilos that you're trying to lift as a fat school so it can take a
fair bit of effort so the care condition really dictates when we're going to do
that marking of winess um when we're going to do it you know
there's pros and cons of of knife ring um you know de horn but you know I know
at home we marked three three weeks before we win so we had to gave those
animals a chance to heal up get over it we given them a vaccine we were able to treat those animals and then we we went
in and that's when we win the other thing is have they been imprinted and educated on what you're going to feed
um this is really important with sheep but I really believe it's also important with cattle and and I know dealing with
a few guys that I've dealt producers I've dealt with over the years um that
you know it really is something that's really important and what you're going to feed those early wi carves and Lambs
should be what you try to introduce out in the padic I had a case with some sheep a few years ago where the producer
had been using Faber beans he got loopin um and I was went out to this and
I couldn't believe that these Lambs in a lick fooder had been able to push the loopin out they weren't
touching we had some issues going on there that's why I was out there but you could really see that you know they
weren't they didn't know what it was they didn't hadn't tried to eat it and all of a sudden they were sorting so really important if you're going to feed
them on something show it to them out in the padic um and and the like
if you're going early wi you need to feed for great not maintenance it's it's
really this is critical I can't sort of stipulate enough we need to be getting
good growth for these animals we need to be having them tick along the faster they grow the one thing we've learned in
17 18 19 is the less health issues that we have um you
know if we talk about half half a kilo per day for for
wers wer cattle um that's great but I know if I can get them up at
6.7.8 and I know this people go oh that's pushing along that is but we know
we get less health issues and less problems same with Lambs that you know if we can get them up over that 100
grams closer to 150 the better the performance the less issues that we tend
to have so really if you're going to feed these cares and early wi LS you
really need to feed for growth so it's not maintenance and it's nutrition nutrition nutrition just can't stipulate
that you know anymore wounding LMS
so look um by roughly three weeks of age a lamb
speed conversion efficiency is greater than use um by eight weeks of age the
the lamb is receiving more nutrients from fism we we know that you know so
it's it's one of those ones by 12 weeks of age the lamb is consuming very very
little weak milk and is actively competing against you for available food
you know so that's that's sort of giving you a bit of an indication of you know sort of where we start to think where we
can start to early War early wean Lambs look we know lambs
have been successfully weaned as life is 10 kilos life weight and under a month
old um really for me I look at that eight weeks of the age
is as a minimum and and minimum weight of 10 kilos
um but really you know anything I can get them heavier up to that 15 18 kilos
for marinos and crossb lims is is so much better we know every kilo that we
get in the limbs the less issues that we have so um if we can get them up over that 15 18 kilos then then really that's
that's where we want to be um yes we we have had people you know wean earlier um
under a month old and the like but look if you're going to do that you really need to seek some some good advice and
and ask some pretty good questions and it will take a fair bit of effort but
size of those limbs is going to dictate how we can do it Wing lams if we've got an extended
laming U it can be a really problem that's why for years you know we talk about bringing that laming they're
carving down but really you know if you've got extended leamings it may
postpone pay to postpone that waning or or wean older or go in and and wean
heavier Lambs only um and then look at that wet and dry of you use and the like
um but really if you can you know try to
you know it's a bit hard when you're in those situations I do understand that but you know if you've got really big
spread of of lambs um in weight and size it really is quite difficult Creek
feeding of lambs to get them heavier sooner is a great tool um I I saw recently a producer who had actually set
up a creep gate into a loosen padic and and the ls were going in getting the
food the weren't going in although they were loving the thought of getting in there but um yeah trying to get them in
uh I have seen people put Creeps in in corners of paddocks or in next Paddock and the like uh but you know really is
one of those things cro feeding it's an old tool it's been around for years and years but is a very very useful tool and
once again what I would say is educate those you and Lambs together get those
Lambs used to eating that food um and when we start to see a lot most of your Lambs coming in food that's telling us
that that they they're on and going and really you know experience tells me that
you've got to have at least three or four feeds of of a you and LS together
but don't lose your eyesight have a look see how many lambs actually coming in if
we're not seeing those Lambs come in and eat and they're not being educated so
really important that you you keep looking and BR
observing really important that if we're early waning that we provide Lambs with
a high quality and digestive food you know it's got to be very good quality uh
protein requirements are high so 14 to 18% depending on on lamb AG live weight
and energy intakes but you know normally whenever I talk dra feeding I talk energy energy
energy but when the second I talk early wanting Lambs you'll hear me talk about protein what's your protein with the
energy um but protein is really really required for for appetite um it's needed
for wool production and and also muscle development so really really is important um you know one of these
things and this is a photo I borrowed from an ex- colleague of mine Jill Kelly um and you know and it doesn't have to
be very complicated although you prefer not having the lamps uh pull in there
but as as Jill said there always one uh this just gives you a little bit
of indication red at the top is is a 20 kilo lamb versus 30 kilo lamb versus 40
kilo lamb versus 50 kilo lamb it BW at the bottom on the the uh right hand side
you can see the crude Pro um crude Pro left hand the crude
protein level um and you can see that there that you know we've got eight up
to 18 and you can really see that a 20 kilo lamb at 12 Megs of energy really
needs roughly around about 16 and a half% protein at 11 a 30 kilo lamb
roughly around about that 14 um and you can see as they get heavier the the
protein requirements drop if I'm dealing with very very early wi Lambs you know
so under that 25 kilos um down 20 20 to
10 kilos then I talk about proteins up around about 18% and crude proteins of
that the other thing is it's important when I'm talking protein for early wor
LS and carbs I'm talking about true proteins I'm not talking about using urer or sulfate Mania to lift the
protein percentage of these Foods
any questions Jeff we do we do um I did answer one on
the side but uh first question we had from Mark was um is the feed cost calculator an app or on the DPI
website the bo cost calculator is still on the website it would be lovely if it was an app uh but yes it's it's it's on
the web I just have it running on the desktop uh bit clunky when you try to use it on your mobile phone but but you
can do it but um when I'm sitting down and working out rations and the like
it's it's the tool I tend to use because I can just drop and change so much yeah and we um we've actually put
the link to that Fe cost calculator into the chat if anyone wants to um jump in
there and and grab that out of there um so Qui question for Marcus and I think
you did cover this but you might just add a little bit more so do you need to feed cows and carves to educate the cves
um tra feeding I'm assuming so how long does this normally take carves are an interesting one um
doesn't have to be trial feeding it's it's out of your food I know in the past
I've just if you're feeding the cows and and bring them in so i' I've used
tractor ties to introduce them to um Palm kernel M um djg pellets I've also
use it for cottony and the like so just however sometimes it can be just in a
trough carves tend to we we tend to find
aren't quite as bad as sheep um with that education so I things but there is
definitely a benefit for showing these animals what it is so if we're going to use canala meal things like that if you
can find some way of feeding that with them definitely beneficial um but not
quite as important to sheep sheep really can do do a lot of harm if you don't have
them educated yeah very good um and the the other question we have is is there is
there advantage in education of by Creek feeding uh yes um a friend of mine uh in
the north of the state um and he was talking cattle with this he said uh he's
never had a shy fooder that he creete food um yeah know because they're used
to going in used to getting a food uh and and creep fooding definitely is a
great way for educating carves on to feed uh without having to feed the the
cows and and it it is definitely one of my preferences uh I see a lot of
producers using it and and it's a great method to get those carves up going get them a little bit heavier but more
importantly when you pull them into the yard and got them into your waning yard and the like and you've got a Feer
there's no fear there they'll go in and have a look I we saw that at home very much so this year with our
cars yep very good um that's all the questions for the moment
easy W carves I thought we'd kick into that um early wound carves at seven
months there's no benefit from being on the k um you know really there are some
benefits from weaning early if we just do it mathematically there's benefits even in
a good year for early weaning um and and you know
I I made the Fatal ER learned from my mistakes where I went I geez I've got
all this food I've got to keep the fat off of these cars I'll leave the cares on no I still ended up with very big fat
cars um yeah so um really not much benefit there you know whereas if I
could have actually wean those cares got the cares onto the best food on the place and got the cows to come through
behind I would have diminished the quality of what the cows were able to eat and and and not get some of the cows
as big of fat as what we had at home so really no benefit for for from the the
Cal being on the car um look it's one of those ones as light as 70 kilos in two months
of age I know this gives people conniptions but there's different steps that that that we can do and and look um
just this week alone I've talked to a couple of people that that are in the situation where they're looking at at
weaning under 80 kilos and there're some light carves and they do take a lot of
management and a lot of work and you've got to make sure that you're doing it and doing it right um the younger the LI
of the Cal the higher the end in protein levels that that you require and the more importance I start to put put in
into the type of protein and also the levels of bypass protein for these very young carves but the big thing to
remember the younger the LI of the C the more issu so if we can use tools like creep feeding it it can be quite
beneficial if you're younger than six weeks really the options are sell them
um if if you're doing it under six weeks um and and your wiing feed it's hard
working dollars you know there's pets that you can use high quality and the like but there's things that become very
very important mob size you need to be able to see the mob um I I really cut my
mob size back and talk about a maximum 50 carves in those young carves down to
that weight uh you need to spend some quality time there seeing it um the
parure ha and straw that you're feeding has got to be good it's got to be good enough that they can get in there and
things like coxy has become a risk so you know really ensuring that you know the food's clean um and and you've got
to be on top of any health issues as they pop pop up uh delay marking
branding de horning just don't don't get stuck into it you don't want to stress them um if if you are in the situation
where you are having to do that I really would recommend pain relief I can't
stress it enough um anything to reduce the stress on these early morning carves
at this level is is really really important and the same with lamps you know that definitely in that scenario
where we're we to that level that you know that pain relief is pretty
important older than six weeks you know we can get get by we can get by on a a
protein meal and rough each we can get Buy on high quality pets um you know
it's one of those ones that um you know you can still sell them but you know you
can can get there going with these um all than 12 Works 100 plus kilos it's
far much far easier um you know we can sell them we can wear food grain
roughage we can get start to use molasses dietes uh fortified molasses
diets this is what I'm talking about for those on on the coast with access to that or uh where they've got setups um
once again we can use protein Mills we can also use things like legume grains and the like as well with ruffy
uh really uh once we get that little bit extra
white in becomes far more easier to manage but you know really that 100 over
120 kilos really you know we we don't require as high quality food under 120
you'll hear me talk about 18% protein and like once again some of the tools that
are out there is cek feeding this is uh photos they all photos now of a guy that
used CP feeding for his carves and it it was a pretty simple mix it was uh Yar and oats and and uh and some lium grains
in there uh he just had fooders out in the paddock and and you know the carbs
they're curious they've gone in they they start eating and and all of a sudden he was able to get them up you
know admittedly this was a bit better time when we when I was taking these photos uh but to give you a bit of an
idea the the photo at the bottom of the wieners that that's a mobile wieners that after a curfew all weighed over 300
kilos by about um prior to seven months a day so you know able to do it yes it
was a bit better year but it does give you that little bit of boost and a benefit so things like Creek
feeding recommendations for for sheep and Cattle
this is one of those ones that we talk about uh troughs if this is minimum sizes that we talk
about we talk about single-sided access 30 cm but for old animals the more space
that you can give them the more access you can give them the less issues that we tend to see with with dominance
Behavior Uh and the like and the more space we tend to get there the more
likely they are to come in and first um double-sided access can help as well
particularly when it's split up the middle that shoot can eat from both sides um but sell feeders we talk about 3 to 5
cmet per head so that gives us 110 to 120 per 2.4 meter Feer um you know just
just one of those ones um but once again more is best you know if you
you've you've got less animals in in that trying to compete it at a Feer or
at a trough really will have have a benefit cattle if we're looking at
single sided um we talk about 30 cm for wieners um you know 15 cm for doubleside
we talk about 3 to 7 cm or 100 to 70 to
100 W to 2.4 m fet uh what I would say is silo feeders
obviously with with the heads angling in we can actually get a few more animals around those figs uh but once again you
know is one of those things that you know if we can get that um you know a
little bit more space around it's really really important what I would say also is um
just just make sure you're having a look sometimes it can be worthwhile if you're using food is to actually spread them
out um you know so if there's a bit of some animals dominating a food if you
can spread them out you know it can help a little bit with some of that dominance
water look this is one of those Nob briners and and you know if I talk about
confinement feeding um it's it's one of the first things I talk about I talk
about need for clean water it's got to be you know don't have boggy water
points so um recently saw saw a feeder um a water
trough sorry that that um had water in the edge there was no troubles with the
quality of the water but all the Lambs were only drinking from one end um yeah because they weren't treading in the
water you know so that was limiting access it was limiting the amount that were coming in so really one of those
things the other thing is feet away from the water and this trough photo here I've got a great example this had
actually been cleaned the day the afternoon before I was out there in the morning and already you could see some
of that feed starting to come into that trough um so so one of those things it's really important that we if you're going
to feed feed a little bit further away if you're going to clean that water out which I say is a given uh it's really
important that that you get that water away from that trough and don't get wet spots the other thing I would say is and
and talking to a work colleague Lauren um here who's done work working in in
food lots and the lik you was saying how even with some of their stuff that they end up having to put bigger aprons on
some of the troughs and lifting some troughs up a little bit higher because of the Dust coming on I've actually seen
situations where animals have come in uh and stop drinking because and it's
cheaper particularly for this uh because of filmer dust on the water so check your water clean it if you're seeing
animals queuing up then there's usually in this um and particularly with these young
animals um it's important that we do it the other one that I would say is um
and and it's something I've seen a few times if I start to see neck cranking
where animals are putting their chin up and over trying to bend their heads over and drink that really is restricting how
much they're able to drink so sometimes and and I've seen this where people have gone got tires and put put down along
the edge or or sleepers along the edge so that young lambs and young cars can actually step up on that and still get a
drink so be aware of that general advice the younger they are
the smaller the all so true um you know if we're looking
at it maximum for cattle I talk about 100 in a mob um and three to 400 for
lambs really you need to cut that right back if you're really early wounding Lambs um you need to be able to see
where you're having issues work out those shy feeders I know with another colleague of mine here we're out at uh
confinement feeding area looking at some some Ram lambs and straight away standing there we could see you know six
or seven animals standing off and talking to the producer here's saying he end up pulling eight and you know pretty
much we could have seen those would have been handy if we had a paint gun we could have marked them up straight away
I don't think work quite bum me for for going out with paint guns but something to think about like for like uh and the
way the analogy I use for this um don't don't try to put a prop forward you know
it's an all you can eat buffet and if you've got a prop forward versus a halfback chances are your prop forward
is going to get more food than your halfback um you know so like with life don't try to put you know uh 25 kilo
lamb against 19 kilo land they're just not going to compete you know so you
know same with a you know 180 kilo car is 120 120 kilo C is just not going to
compete really important set up a hospital pen um even myself we end up
getting two SI cares out of 107 at home with a relatively benign food etc etc
etc um so yeah you're going to need a hospital pen shy feeders there always
going to be a um please forgive me anyone out there
but I always say shy feed is you better off it and then be someone else's problem get them bring them in sell them
because what we tend to find the shy is they're the ones that that will get subclinical assis so yo yo you get ey
issues all the rest of it so get them out um don't sit and forget spend some
quality time and this is a photo I've pinched of of um exw colleague Jill Kelly and and this is example that that
she had at a producer where the animals were cranking their head over and a lot
of the issue was that they were actually not able to eat it was too deep it was too high for them and they couldn't get
the head in there so once again important that you do spend some time there look at what's actually going on
look at those animals where they're going in and out what what's actually happened um it's it's very variable time
if you're really really early Waring the other thing to consider is sites
where you going to actually put it um this is a producer that that I've worked with in the past he's got a very good
little setup there it's a site that he can access um I know in that District I
I did work years ago with a spot PL set up a beautiful feeding area was you know
it was great it was near his shed it was near his yards he had great Road uh
where his feeding etc etc it was great until they got a summer storm and got 4 Ines of rain which really had problems
of those animals getting in uh to that feed really caused huge issues though of
getting feed into those animals um and you know so site and location make sure
it's it's you know right Health treatments you need to be up talk to the
vets heav AR to them um they're a great resource in LLS um look at that side of
things you know what you know do we look at um you know vaccines fly treatments etc for for
Cales um you know what do we actually need the other big one is get a food
test don't guess um just today I was talking about some variations we're seeing in some of the food tests and
I've mentioned it earlier um the other one is if you need help get some help
particularly when you're looking at these very early wi carves get get help designing a ration look at what you need
um the other thing too is self feeders and troughs there's pros and cons with
both troughs are a great thing you're there tend to be there more regular but you know if you're spreading it out and
and you know only fooding once a day sometimes you will get more shy fooders
fooding twice a day sometimes it can Mar some of the issues there's pros and cons with both uh W it up look what works um
you know just try to manage it yourself but just think it think it through how's
it going to work for your system I think we're at the end um it's
hopefully we've covered a fair bit of ground fairly quickly there Jeff but uh any questions I'd be happy to answer
them yeah we uh We've we've wrapped them all up for the moment but um we might
just see if anyone might have a last quick question they want to um throw into the to the tab there um just just
while people might be thinking or typing that in um something we'll just plug is
that tomorrow or in the next day also you'll receive a recording but anyone who's attended tonight of tonight's
webinar with that recording there will also be a um a little survey so we'd
really be Keen for to get some um responses on the survey um if you've joined joined us tonight some feedback
on what your thought and any topics you might want to covered in the future or um anything uh yeah anything else you might
want us to uh to cover locally would be really good this is our last webinar in
this series for this year uh we will look to um do some more planning on what
we might do next year so Brett um just a couple of questions have come in what is
Spike beating sorry I missed that uh what is
Spike feeding ke have you uh heard of that one yeah Spike feeding where we
spe feed of protein supplementation so we where you know there was work done by
David heny and Co this been work up north look at a protein supplement to cows or even with Sho we high energy
just to help them to ovulate get more animals um getting in Cal so that's what I talk about when I'm talking about
Spike fooding uh it's it's an increase of food for your cows or you use to to
sort of try to get more in CF um yeah y
yep gotcha well I think in uh in down in the San area here we use a different term but know what you're talking about
um another question we got here is um how big an area needed for weaning cares
say 30 cares uh 30 cars really comes down to
sort of you know we talk about about you know 10 10 to 12 squar m per calf um you know
really you can get away with a bit less um to start off with but you know really
you 30 carves it's not too not too hard so you know you know realistically that you
know 10 to 10 to 12 square meters uh but a lot of that information if people
actually looking at spacing can be found in the confinement feeding then you'll where for both sheep and cattle um is is
probably the best place to go and actually look at that and um that's that's available on the LLS
website yep great um would you recommend BRD or pink eye vaccination with early
weaning BRD I'll definitely be having a y a bit and and look at the option um
particularly if you know you have have issues um um and I would definitely be
looking at it prior to early weaning um you know sort of say you can get them a
bit set up um pink ey is one of those ones it's it's
definitely uh depending on your location and like what I would say is I would
treat to minimize flies um so I'd get a fly treatment for for for carves to try
to get them off uh the head and make sure you're getting it up on the the pole the like uh the other thing too and
I didn't mention it tonight uh I hate overhead hay racks for early one cares
number one uh carves in lamps they they eat up the dust and material falls into
their eyes um Falls in their nose we get more damage to the eyes than the like um
so so that's one of those ones back into of 1819 um we did see some areas that had
used uh Pink ey vaccination for a number of years um all of a sudden had had
problems because they had a different strain so but what I can say is through good nutrition we can minimize some of
the the nasty effects but definitely is something that I put in the mix but once
again depends on your area where you are what your history is ETC yep great uh another question here
we got a few coming in actually uh techniques for educating wieners when putting them on the pellets or the
meals yeah tricks of the tribe how do we do it um what I would say with early W lambs
and I know one of those ones where I've actually seen it where people using csection and and I've got a producer
swear swears by this for for his his limbs he's actually lifting it up a
little bit um having it raised off the ground and what he's found there with the W Lambs is that they walk in and you
know they're looking around and all of a sudden they they'll kick the trough and put their head down um so that's that's
one of those ones uh cares same story getting them over I generally don't have
many issues with getting carves on canala meal that they tend to find that very very palatable uh doj pets same
with those they tend to find bit palatable um but if I'm having trouble getting sheep or Lambs or onto a onto a
new feed then I look at um making up a bit
of a mix with molasses so I go uh four parts water one part molasses in just a
little um spray uh container you can buy them from M to 10 or Bunnings or whatever and just spraying that over the
top of of the pets um that sweetness of the Molasses tends to get the animals on
they come and and have a go but definitely you know if they're not going
near those areas where you've got the pellets Etc getting those animals in that area what I would also do is this
is where things like potty CES other things that being used to being fed become very very useful um you
know if if you're in the situation where you've got some you know stud cars with young cares on they're being fed fed
with their M putting those animals in in in the mix will a sudden show these
other animals um where the feed is I have actually seen BLS that will will
yard wi one lot of cares have leave a couple of those cares in there that are used to eating used to getting onto that
food and put another mob in there with them um and that does help as well just to educate those animals to go to that
food y yep um You probably cover this one a little bit but um how can we
prevent pink eye in early way carves and how best to deal with those have
it uh early one CES pink it's pryal
problem get that fly treatment on them get good nutrition into them and avoid
overhead hay racks like the plague I know this is one of those ones that I've had issues with where people say I've
never had a problem I've had enough problems to say it's no longer a
coincidence um where I've gone out and and really see those carves with their heads in underneath and just dropping
that material down into their eyes um it it really is one of those ones but I would definitely any of those fly
treatments you know get it up onto the actual pole of the animal and and get
that cover up on that head you know so that you keep those flies away you can
look at fly control around your own place but you know definitely you know once you start to see that that pink eye
treat it there's having under the vets I'm I'm a bit of a fan of the cream and what I do at home uh and look we all get
it at times um is um get a patch use old jeans and glue it get that protection
onto that eye um and you know if there's if there's issues starting to happen with a cal pull him out put him in the
SI pin treat him a little bit differently yeah great um question here
on shade so is shade important is some shade okay or do you need to provide enough for all or none at all due to
crowding in the shade oh the the old shade question
um yeah look an an aspect of the shade's really important where it is um uh is is
one of those ones definitely for the cattle and particularly in some
of the environments I'm I'm a big fan of shade and and a bit of uh you know but
it's got to dry out underneath it um how you set it up that's that's a question
for for another day there's a fair bit to this one but it should be any shade that you do set up should be on a a sort
of a North South aspect don't have it on an East West aspect uh if you have it on an
East West aspect it tends not to dry out underneath because the sun just moves
through it across the sky whereas in the north south The Sun Will Come Rising the
East set in the west and all of a sudden it dri In and Out Underneath It uh my
preference would be at least trying to have enough shade set up for for
roughly you know 20 to 30% of your animals at any one stage but you know
that's pretty important but what I would say for carbs and we know this is for cattle is be really careful you don't
affect wind flow um you they need to get the air moving through um it's important
otherwise they will start to heat sheep you know we know that they're very good at
at lying down not getting the reflection getting the head in bits of shade putting in and under the other thing too
and I didn't talk about this with water is shading water you know water that's hot they won't drink as much you know
that if they're not drinking water they're not they they tend not to eat uh I've seen people put shade over water
with sheep uh particularly where they've been using these poly type troughs where they they're um PVC trough sorry where
they're not quite you know they're trying not to get them to heat um what ends up happening is you end up with
animals going in and lying in in that shade that restricts access restricts animals coming in so shade's a real
difficult one um but yeah it's it's definitely my preference that we do have a bit of side
therefore yeah great um another question from question from Glenn is could you
please discuss dry matter requirements which is probably a fairly big
topic yeah as into how much or how dry the
feed yeah it's sort of dry matter requirements if if we're looking at it
um you know with the really early one carbs I like to give them a li roughage
um and and a good quality roughage with with a pellet um depending well with a
with an energy and protein feed going with it um you know depending on their
size I'm talking about with them sort of needing you know sort of roughly round
about that oh depends on the size but really 3/4 to
to a kilo and a half per head per day depends on the rough each and and the like use those calculators give you a
bit of an indicator um but it is really important that they do eat eat that
protein pellet or legum or or protein meal um that you've got in there but
yeah so that for carbs uh for lams um you know really same story use the
calculators but on a you know sort of kilos of food wise and you know we're we're really talking about needing those
animals both cares and Lambs s of somewhere in theine depending on the energy s of being in excess of one and a
half% of their life weight on a dry at of Team sorry the mozzies are just coming
out that time of the day uh a couple more uh question from Fred is uh is it
better to confine cars to a small area um of thinking in the early waning situation I'd
say yes definitely don't have them out in the padic wandering around you'll end up with them you know you've got to be
able to have them in in that small area so you can actually look at what's going on and pick up any issues um and look
you know really is important that you spend some quality time there and have a look don't just dump the feed and walk
away you need to be monitoring what is actually going on and I can't stress how important is clean the water regularly
you know if you start to have issues with the water we start to have issues with the feeding uh it's it's a domino
effect um but yep definitely worthwhile to restrict them up pretty well but you know still allow them the space of new
ground and the like but and particularly you know if if you've got a you know a mob
that's sort of on the upper end of what we look at sizewise uh you've got to allow animals to get off into their
social groups we all know we've got mates you know friends and Kettle and she the same they tend to like to go off
with with with their mates and stay away from the bullies or the ones that give them hard time
y great um question around fly treatment product suggestions for eliminating
flies around the half head to go any um favorites H this is where I can get into
trouble um look easy do is um I think it used to be
rest easy dose is one I know I've used at home swish um you know and the likes
there's a number of different products out there I know one of the ones that used to be great but you can't buy it
anymore it was it it it killed fle flies everything um but um yeah but uh yeah
really it's it's that arrest or one of those types but uh have yed to one of
the Vets um talk to them and see what's what's what's out there but yeah easy dose was a good one swish was a product
I've used um there's there's a couple of different ones out there yeah great uh and just a question
similar line is around um Brett just mentioned what type of fly treatment to
help prevent pink eye can you get it from an A reseller or is it a bet
product uh AGG reseller yep a reseller yep y y for the for the
vaccination for but same story you've got to have that early you don't want to
be seeing the pink eye issues and then give it because I've had producers um
use the pink eye vaccination and then and when you go out they're going oh it
hasn't worked it's all terrible you know and you go out oh when did you start well we started to have some eyes issues
so we've that's when we went this needs to be planned in advance um and and go
in there and what I would say is also you know if some some of these areas these cars haven't seen Green Feed for a
while think about a shot of ad& um you know if they haven't had that Green Feed
you've got them on cereal Haze and cereal grains and the like um and AD and we know that that that we can see an
increase in pink eye issues if if there is issue it's not the Cure All don't get me wrong but you know for some areas
where these cares have never had Green Feed it's definitely one to be putting in the tool
box yeah right um another one here you mentioned earlier Brett you feed not the
cheapest way but it works can you elaborate on this what are some of the your shortcuts or preferred methods even if
they don't if they do cost slightly more cotton seed um $700 OD dollar a ton
it's it's got out there hasn't it um I've used cotton seed DED cotton seed we
fed a lot of that during the drought because we could able feed twice weekly with it um p kernel meal is another one
that I like feeding my cows proteins on the lower end you've got to add something to it for for early W cars and
Liams um palatability issues at times with it um you know but you know I got
quoted $550 a ton to get it landed at home uh currently so yeah look there
there a couple of little ones that I look at um but that's because I can't Fe
be there every day I've got to be able to feed with a bit of a break in between um and and
also I've got to have something that that my family can handle if if I'm off fo giving feeding advice or doing field
days so uh it's one of those ones um you know there's a few of those different bits and pieces I
know lopin and the like you know um you can feed them semi-regularly um as well
so there's there's some of these things that we look at um you know at times it's not you know exactly a balanced
operation we haven't got the right protein with the right energy uh in times we've got too much protein but um
you know it's it's it's what you can make work um also you know at the moment
fetch hey is is great value for money when you start doing your sums do your sums see what's out there um you know
and and you know I I used a lot of canal but there's huge iations in Canal H I'm
seeing some of the tests out there there um you know get a food test have a look at
it yeah do the numbers because not always the cheapest is the best that's for sure I love molasses mixes and we
used a lot of molasses when I grew up on the coast I don't use it at mudie because
it's I'm not set up for [Laughter] it yeah very good well um I think we're
nearly nearly at the end there we've got one question around can we send out the Q&A uh with the presentation tomorrow um
we'll have a we'll see what we can do about that otherwise it'll be in the recording anyway so we uh we you might
have to go back and rewatch the back end of the the webinar but we will see what we can do about that um any final
comments there Brett look um thanks very much for having us on tonight um you're not alone
uh if people are what I would say is and and the joy of mine and your job Jeff is
we get to go out and have a look um what I would say is if you get the chance you know a neighbor who's doing something go
and have a look uh same with confinement fooding area setting up a fooding area and the like go and have a look at
someone else's um if you get the chance get a own D go and have a look um and
and see what's out there but really what I would say at the moment um I had a
producer yesterday rang me and said I've been quite this said oh he's having a tu go at you but I've always got food from
there and it's always good well that's good but I'm telling you that's about $100 a ton over what I can get for the
same same product and so spend some time um I know we had a guy you know talking
about it there today at the workshop we were at this afternoon where he mentioned about you know spend a bit of
time to to investigate and he was talking about the market side of things but I would also say spend a bit of time
make a few phone calls talk to some other people um Joy about my job I get people ringing me I don't have to ring
and ask but ring some other people see what's they've got um we we know there's
there's there can be some variation out there um and look really get a food test
and and and do your sons yeah and I'd also add to that U Brett that if there are some small
groups of landholders that all want to have a similar chat we're happy to come along and facilitate a bit of a a
conversation and work through a few issues that might be around locally um happy to happy to do that yep definitely
so get in touch and and more than happy to come out and be involved y one one final question um can
I feed just whole loin and O and hay to wean Lambs from kin so she's talking 20%
loopin and 80% o uh yes you whole whole loopin uh
loopin are better crack than they are hold to to cattle um loopin are they're
great thing uh you just want to do your numbers on what the O and high is and whether you're going to get get the
protone levels up up enough um so it comes back to what protein that a
is um you may have to at 20% I suggest without doing the numbers and knowing
the protein of the oats oat and hay that you're probably going have to up the um amount of loopin to if you're early
weaning type LS and trying to get 16 plus% protein uh if you're dealing with alus loopin I'll tend to be about
32% um sorry uh narrow Leaf gust aolia they'll tend to be about 32% uh protein
um so if you're only feeding 20% say you may have to bump bump that number up
depending on the protone level of of of your high
yeah really good scenario to run through the drought feed calculator and um with your with your feed tested hand really
is yeah great way of doing it I do it roughly in my head and say you're probably underdoing
it yeah yeah very good well um we might wrap it up there Brett thanks everyone
for joining us tonight um I hope you got a bit out of what we presented or what Brett's presented um the recording will
be on your uh email in the in the next day or so once it's ready to go out and
um yeah appreciate you spending your time with us and thanks BR for the great presentation thanks very much and
apologies again for the blackout but uh had nothing to do with me I think I think we hang around here
much longer Brett we won't be able to see you so we better um say good night good night everyone thank you see
you
